Are You Too Advanced For Your Own Good?

[vit]

Yes, of course there are many differences between those two styles (like the way how you turn etc) and within the styles, so no need to continue off topic ... there seems to be slight differences in my and you terminology, but doesn't matter, I'm surely not purist in that regard, leaving that to dance teachers to discuss which word is right and which isn't for particular thing in dancing ...

 

[Offbeat]

When are you going to learn that dancing on2 is just as valid (and advisable) in casino as it is in slot style salsa?

Of course anyone can break on whatever beat they like, but on2 comes from Cuba and still works well with better contemporary Cuban music (imo - it definitely works superbly with classic salsa). To be fair I don't think on2 (contratiempo) is very popular in Cuba today (solely based on anecdotal evidence) but that's no reason for its being almost absent on the casino scene outside the island.

Dude!!! 'on2' was a shorthand for Sab's fav style that she dances in NYC!

And for the records I am not much fan of Casino as I have seen it so far (which is only in my local area) whether on1, on2, on3, on4, on5, on6, on7 or on8

P.S. - Do we have to start writing like lawyers write legal documents ?

 

[Offbeat]

Give him a break You know that when he says on2 he means the linear NY ET on2 style, which is very different than casino no matter on what beat it is danced.

Thanks. Read this after I posted my post above.

By the way I have asked Cuban guys what they think of linear salsa (not NY on2 specifically) and those that have seen it think that the women look great dancing it, but the guys seem to mostly stand around not really dancing, so they look like crap

I fully agree with Cuban guys here. I always think (with usual caveats and exceptions) that in most cases it is the women who are doing all the dancing and the guys are like traffic cops directing their arms up, down, left or right.

not step as much as he should looks to Cuban dancers, who are used to intensely feeling and dancing every beat

Agree here too. Cuban/Casino style leader is using his feet on almost every beat.

 

[Offbeat]

To the point of the article, I think it's overthinking it a bit. These kinds of things ebb and flow. A lot of us who get to the point where we feel ennui when it comes to dancing have spent a long time dancing in the same places with the same people and often to much of the same music. I think most of the loss of excitement just comes from that, not necessarily from being "too advanced". I know in my own case I'm at the point where I go out in the local scene maybe once or twice per month because I'm in an (extended) ebb. But in October I had six outings over two weeks in Japan, dancing will all levels of dancers, and I was hyped and having fun the whole time. Then just this past Saturday I went to a social in Arcadia, CA (close to an hour drive from LA), dancing mostly with less experienced dancers...and I felt like I did in Japan. I had maybe 3 full throttle dances all night and had the time of my life. Sometimes it just becomes routine and even though we like the people we normally dance with and the songs we normally dance to, we just need something different.

This so very similar to my experience. Routine becomes a drag. New is like a breath of fresh air.

Though I have to say this. If the local scene dancers that were coming out regularly today as they were 4-5 years back, I wouldn't be as unenthusiastic as I am now. What does that mean ?

 

[Offbeat]

So much of dance is mental game; I think a lot of people don't realize that. Fear makes you move tentatively. Anger and stress keep you from relaxing. If you look at great dancers in any genre you'll notice how confident they seem. But confidence is the top layer. If you look underneath, you'll see controlled and relaxed movements. If you're wound too tightly you end up fighting your own body -- holding yourself back, essentially. When we train movements over and over again, we're training to get out of our own way. We're training to stop having to go deep into our brains, where things are often cluttered and complex, before we can move. How that connects to personal life -- if we can learn to get out of our own way on the dance floor, we can learn to do the same in other areas of life.

Dude I don't know what you drank in Japan, but send some this way too!!

 

[Offbeat]

So true. And total noobs can be confident and pleasure to dance with. Because they are not controlled by their insecurities.

I guess you are saying this as a lead. Am not sure followers have same experiecne with noob lead

 

[Sabrosura]

Dude!!! 'on2' was a shorthand for Sab's fav style that she dances in NYC!

And for the records I am not much fan of Casino as I have seen it so far (which is only in my local area) whether on1, on2, on3, on4, on5, on6, on7 or on8

Can I send you some casino videos to discuss and maybe change your mind a little Because I used to think casino sucked until I went to Cuba, so I think US casino scenes (non-Cuban) may be misleading. I'll do it in PM so we don't derail this discussion too much.

 

[GForce85]

This so very similar to my experience. Routine becomes a drag. New is like a breath of fresh air.

Though I have to say this. If the local scene dancers that were coming out regularly today as they were 4-5 years back, I wouldn't be as unenthusiastic as I am now. What does that mean ?

Just means that some of your enthusiasm also comes from dancing with them. But you just worded it as "wouldn't be as unenthusiastic", I'm thinking maybe because there's a complicit acknowledgement that your overall enthusiasm would still take some attrition from routine. Or I could be completely wrong lol. But that's how I read it.

 

[GForce85]

Dude I don't know what you drank in Japan, but send some this way too!!

Haha I'm sure part of it was just getting a break from a leader-heavy scene. I usually sit a lot of songs out, but those ladies kept me on my feet all night. It was quite nice .

 

[Offbeat]

Can I send you some casino videos to discuss and maybe change your mind a little Because I used to think casino sucked until I went to Cuba, so I think US casino scenes (non-Cuban) may be misleading. I'll do it in PM so we don't derail this discussion too much.

Believe me, we have some very good Casino dancers. I usually don't make any judgments from the videos but do send them across. I have always felt that videos don't do same justice as watching live. There is something that is taken away when watching a dance on a video.

I will even fake dance a Casino when I realize the follower is not a slot style dancer and it is evident from her stepping and movement she is a Casino dancers. Elsewhere in the forums somewhere I have narrated my experience from years ago about trying to learn Casino and been stood up by 4 different Casino instructors (3 of whom were actually from Cuba). I like rumba in all its form. I think what I don't like about Casino is that continuous movement and/with all those hand pretzels. Also I think I have yet to see a lot of Casino that brings in element of sensuality in to dancing. Plus I really don't like Timba music much. Nor do I like the reggaeton influenced music that also gets played by Casino DJs.

 

[Offbeat]

Haha I'm sure part of it was just getting a break from a leader-heavy scene. I usually sit a lot of songs out, but those ladies kept me on my feet all night. It was quite nice .

I sit out a lot. But I wasn't referring to dancing. And I have the experience of lot of good dancing in Japan, including getting asked often (because I was from outside).

I was referring to all the wisdom pouring out of your keyboard

 

[GForce85]

I sit out a lot. But I wasn't referring to dancing. I was referring to all the wisdom pouring out of your keyboard

Haha I forgot I had made another post and was thinking about the first one. Thanks for the kind words; that post was more from my observations on my hip hop journey than Japan. But just in case it helps, I drank a lot of this sports drink called Aquarius there XD

 

[Sabrosura]

Believe me, we have some very good Casino dancers. I usually don't make any judgments from the videos but do send them across. I have always felt that videos don't do same justice as watching live. There is something that is taken away when watching a dance on a video.

I will even fake dance a Casino when I realize the follower is not a slot style dancer and it is evident from her stepping and movement she is a Casino dancers. Elsewhere in the forums somewhere I have narrated my experience from years ago about trying to learn Casino and been stood up by 4 different Casino instructors (3 of whom were actually from Cuba). I like rumba in all its form. I think what I don't like about Casino is that continuous movement and/with all those hand pretzels. Also I think I have yet to see a lot of Casino that brings in element of sensuality in to dancing. Plus I really don't like Timba music much. Nor do I like the reggaeton influenced music that also gets played by Casino DJs.

I take it you haven't seen more traditional, pretzel free casino then. I am not very fond of the pretzels myself, and I do think that is what mostly gets taught as "casino". How do you feel about son dancing?

 

[Offbeat]

How do you feel about son dancing?

Not familiar with it and haven't seen it either. Would love to though.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Dude!!! 'on2' was a shorthand for Sab's fav style that she dances in NYC!

And for the records I am not much fan of Casino as I have seen it so far (which is only in my local area) whether on1, on2, on3, on4, on5, on6, on7 or on8

P.S. - Do we have to start writing like lawyers write legal documents ?

If we can get their sort of fees then I'm up for it.

 

[DJ Yuca]

I take it you haven't seen more traditional, pretzel free casino then. I am not very fond of the pretzels myself, and I do think that is what mostly gets taught as "casino".

Just as with the linear scene, casino teachers have to give people what they want or risk losing their career/paid hobby. (Or maybe pretzels are the teachers' preference; I've never asked any of them.)

 

[DJ Yuca]

I think what I don't like about Casino is that continuous movement and/with all those hand pretzels. Also I think I have yet to see a lot of Casino that brings in element of sensuality in to dancing. Plus I really don't like Timba music much. Nor do I like the reggaeton influenced music that also gets played by Casino DJs.

Re. the music: that's exactly the situation: most casino events play vast amounts of Cuban reggaeton or music that is very close to reggaeton (i.e. timbaton). It's (even) worse than timba for most salsa lovers.

Re. continuous movement: this I don't really get. I know some slot leads like to stop doing the basic step and just stand on the spot leading with their arms - is this what you are referring to? If so, is it really that universal? (Personally I can't stand to see it, but that's my personal taste.)

 

[Sabrosura]

Just as with the linear scene, casino teachers have to give people what they want or risk losing their career/paid hobby. (Or maybe pretzels are the teachers' preference; I've never asked any of them.)

Yes, I think it's the usual issue of "more complicated"/showy = better. I noticed it in Cuba too, Havana guys who work as dance instructors who teach foreigners tend to do a lot more pretzels than normal, non-pro guys I danced with in the rest of the country, or pros in Santiago who are a lot more influenced by son in their dancing (no pretzel guys in Santiago, even among pros).

Here is a story from my last night at 1830 in Havana. Sundays at 1830 are big salsa nights and a lot of pro dancers attend, and they kind of compete with one another in terms of how good they are, and it seems to have resulted into lots of pretzels in their dancing (i.e. who can do the most complicated pretzels). Since by then I could follow all the pretzels very well, they were all throwing as many pretzels as they could at me. It was good practice for me so I wasn't complaining. At one point one of my (Cuban) dance partners (non-pro, dances without pretzels) told me how a (Cuban) woman asked him to dance and told him she enjoyed dancing with him much more than with the "other guys" because of his more simple and relaxed style.

So yeah pretzels in casino are like spins in salsa, to quote a friend.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Do you know any good pretzel-free/Santiago style casino vids?

 

[Sabrosura]

Do you know any good pretzel-free/Santiago style casino vids?

Santiagueros are so influenced by son that it's hard to say where their son stops and the "casino" begins. But here are a few videos for starters.

This is from Santiago--love the old guys dancing here (son) at 0:41--love how he marks that "2" on the clave!

And here is a dance, also by santiagueros, that does have some pretzels but they are nothing like the pretzel frenzy we see in studio taught casino, I think it is proof that when done right, pretzels can be nice and elegant, and also comfortable and enjoyable for the woman (the guy's lead looks really smooth and comfortable to me):

This is not from Santiago but it is a great example of pretzel free, elegant casino:

@Offbeat , here is some sensual son for you