When everyone wants to give you their advice

Discussion in 'Just Dance' started by AngularMomentum, Aug 27, 2017.

  1. Chris_Yannick

    Chris_Yannick Shine Officer

    In some cultures, it is normal for guys to take control and assert their dominance. It's not really about being submissive as it is about conforming to gender roles. Almost all of my female friends here will say yes to someone they do not like dancing with. Basically, whenever I tell someone who just had a bad dance experience to not dance with that person again, they will come up with excuses about how it wasn't so bad. Frankly, I think my scene is just choke full of massive egos from having been a big fish in a small pond for far too long. And nothing can sway them otherwise as there is no reason to change when you have your pick of the litter and you are put atop that local pedestal.
     
    #21
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  2. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'Fania' Pacheco

    I stopped reading there. All above are examples of bad leads and examples of dancers who are out of norm. You would lose nothing by not dancing with them. If you come from a small scene perhaps you can talk about it with the organizer discreetly. Most regular dancers I know (greater than 90% wouldn't do any of the above mentioned. Let me correct myself - these are very very bad leads. They need to be sent to salsa remedial rehabilitation for six months minimum.
     
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  3. Marisha

    Marisha Descarga

    I think these videos are related a little bit to your question.

     
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  4. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    Then why do most act like patients ?
     
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  5. MrR

    MrR Son Montuno

    And when you tell women to emancipate, to take control over the situation instead of complaining, to leave the traditional role of the inferior female, you have a good chance to get reactions like this:

    (And it is typical for those situations, that she quoted only a part of my text and freely misinterpreted it to justify to react, like I attacked her side.)

    I want to tell you a story, that I have seen happening like that in part or in full over and over again:
    3 actors: GoodGirl (GG), Nice Guy (NG), Macho Guy (MG)

    GG is new to the scene and/or in town. She is pretty, friendly to everyone and good enough in moving herself, that it is actually some fun dancing with her.
    NG is a bit shy, but he asks her to dance. They have a fun dance, an honest thank you, she even says him, that she wants to dance with him again.
    MG isn't the slightest bit shy. He isn't a bad person, just a bit on the more masculine side - don' think, act!. He asks her to dance and tries to impress her with cool moves. At the end of the dance he holds her hand and wants to dance on. After all she is smiling to him all the time! She is friendly, so she smiles and does as he wants for 2, 3, 5 more dances. While he tells her, how she has to move here and there. And all the time she does what she has learned - she nods and smiles. When he is much too harsh she tries to calm him down with being friendly, even with flirting a bit. At the end he forces a big hug onto her, which she answers. She is the good girl, she does as people want from her.
    NG sees the situation. As he knows a little bit about people he can see, that her smile isn't honest - but never can be totally sure, as she is good in faking it.

    Later that evening NG asks her to dance again. She is honestly tired, so she asks him to dance next time. He accepts it and turns around to look on for someone else to dance.
    Behind his back MG asks her to dance. She tries to say no - softly. He would have accepted a clear no, but he simply grabs her hand and then the same procedure as before starts again. Of course NG sees, that she is dancing with him again. For 3+ songs. While she just told him, that she was tired!
    Now he is justified to believe, that she prefers to dance with MG.

    Next weekend.
    GG has brought a friend, to not be alone with all those guys.
    NG hasn't completely given up on her and tries to make eye contact. GG is talking with her friend. The men will come and take her anyway, that is her experience.
    MG comes and grabs her hand. He dances on to her, tries to impress her, tries to teach her.

    Later a female friend tells NG, that GG actually would like to dance with him. NG tries his luck in asking her. Sadly she is tired from that teaching session and asks him to come back later.
    Shortly after MG drags her to the floor again.

    GG is sad, that NG does not ask her to dance anymore - and keeps waiting for him to do so.
    But now NG is completely sure, that she does not like to dance with him.
    And after this happening several times he decides, he needs to become a macho too.

    ->
    She has not a single time stood up and told MG, that she does not like to dance with him! So no one stated MG, that he misbehaved!
    Instead she has told NG - who she actually liked to dance with - that she doesn't want to dance right now. But as she danced again for a long time instantly after that, NG is justified to believe, that she does not like to dance with him at all but instead likes to dance with MG.
    MG has seen this too - he isn't completely blind after all. And he is not trying to do any harm to her, he would accept a clear no after all. So he, who is the one doing the active harm in this story, believes, that she likes to dance with him. So he is justified to think, that he is acting rightfully - in his traditional male role.

    Over the weeks several MGs try to get GG laid. One succeeds, after she had a few drinks. She feels shitty afterwards and decides not to come back, telling all her friends, that she Salsa dancers are a bunch of machos, who only want to get girls laid and then don't call afterwards.

    The key to the solution is not teaching MG - he has no reason to improve his behavior, so teaching is futile.
    Making NG more macho isn't a good choice too. After all he can be frustrated and become just another MG - with his deeper understanding probably the one who finally gets her laid, which is the killing blow, so he will actually become the evil guy.
    The key actually is GG. The friendly one, who tries to be nice to everybody, has to emancipate from her 19th century gender roll. She has to say no to MG. And she has to come to NG and tell him, that she wants to dance with him after all. She is the one keeping this circle alive with her passivity.
    Yes, the system works because women are feeding it.


    This example explains in my eyes sufficiently, that it is not only the men's role, to treat the women better. The women actually have to get out of their 19th century role model too or they will actually make primarily those men, who treat them respectfully, suffer.

    When I tell this to women, they find the craziest excuses, why they are right to behave like that and even worse, the wildest accusations are thrown to me.
    The victims are defending the system they complain about !?!
     
  6. Chris_Yannick

    Chris_Yannick Shine Officer


    This is a story I've seen happen over and over again in my local scene. But I live in Eastern Europe and this is the cultural norm. Women and men are still firmly stuck in their pre-communist gender roles.

    I know many NGs who get shafted in the salsa dating arena because they don't take to the dominant role. I am one of them... but I'm not talking about me because I simply refuse to turn into the MG in your story. I am trying to cultivate a different culture... one that encourages safety and comfort. A tall task given the amount of BS that happens. New pretty girl comes to the club, gets hit on by all the MGs in the room, has a fling with one or two and maybe even gets into a relationship with one of them, but the end result in the same, which is to leave the scene never to be seen or heard from again.

    But this goes beyond salsa. You can be a supremely bad dancer but still prey successfully on the GGs. These MGs only come to get theirs and then leave the scene (or they get a taste of it and they stay for the next round of GGs). Girls know about them, but they still don't say no. I'm not going to say anything as it's completely their choice (or the choice is made for them). We are all consenting adults. I choose to keep to a different standard and I like being a NG. This is about me. I'm not going to be a white knight for anyone.

    I will not feel sorry for someone who can not make a decision on their own without being pushed, prodded or worse, bedded.

    I've already had too many experiences like the one you outlined and I've found that the best thing to do is to just stick with the people who are like you and ignore the rest. I've also been on the other side and felt horrible about it. Never again.
     
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  7. Marisha

    Marisha Descarga

    :) Several times I refused to give my phone number, so these partners started ignoring me and not ask for dance for a while:D It was funny:D After a month or so, they started to ask me for dance again but this time without extra flirting:) :pand I am happy with it.
     
  8. Smejmoon

    Smejmoon El Sabroso de Conguero

    Is this in the USA? I think it's their mating ritual.
     
  9. Marisha

    Marisha Descarga

    Canada:). I can easily detect MG, and I prefer to be away from them.:)
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2017
  10. Smejmoon

    Smejmoon El Sabroso de Conguero

    Gg do that too. Now in Europe girls ask for Facebook contacts
     
  11. Marisha

    Marisha Descarga

    The girls become more active in Europe:)
     
  12. granrey

    granrey Sonero

    body language is key.

    If you are dancing with someone and you don't like to dance with him again. Use your body language to show your lack of interest.

    If he asks you to dance again. women have many tricks for this. when you see the guy approaching either head to the bathroom, pull another guy to dance or talk, say you are waiting for someone, etc. guys get the message.
     
  13. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'Fania' Pacheco

    Your narration is perhaps overdramatic, but I have seen that play out often enough. Personally speaking when I see a NG giving more time of the day than necessary to someone who is a jerk, or over-greedy, or taking advantage of her; she immediately goes into my do not ask list (and likely to stay there for a very long time). If she asks, it is fine. But I won't ask her (even if she has never said no to me).

    If you are not willing to take responsibility for not getting taken advantage of, or indulging others to reinforce their ill-behavior, then you rather drown in the situation of your own making.

    P.S. - my DNA list keeps getting longer rather than shorter!
     
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  14. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'Fania' Pacheco

    When I told them I am not on Facebook, they gave me their phone number :D
     
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  15. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'Fania' Pacheco

    Or to make it simpler say no with a smile. Nothing like killing with kindness! No need to create an excuse to say no.
     
  16. granrey

    granrey Sonero

    While honesty is always great. You have to see things in a case by case basis. If a guy is rejected and other women see it. The news spread like gun powder and other girls might not dance with him and my lower his self steem.

    There are lots of men out there that are naturally shy and are always waiting for the right time, the right song, the right words, the right girl, etc and when for some reason all these requirements happen, it would hurt a lot to get rejected.

    While this is not OP case. The guys she is referring to, think themselves to be masters lol. Still a mans'ego. It's a tricky thing.

    For instance, if somebody asks for your phone number but you don't want to give it (because you dont want that person to phone you and you don't want to cause a scene by saying no) You ask for the other person number but of course you'll never phone. While misleading and creating false hope for the naive, in some cases that is a "no" better than a literal "no".
     
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  17. Smejmoon

    Smejmoon El Sabroso de Conguero

    Inexplicable. Facebook actually helps to maintain face-name association.
     
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  18. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'Fania' Pacheco

    You can take a pic with them and associate it with the name :D problem solved.

    P.S. - Phone number is often for messaging (on Whatsapp).
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
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  19. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'Fania' Pacheco

    I am exactly what you described above (except for the hurt part) and I appreciate honesty over a false excuse. Depending on the context, I may view false excuse as disrespectful. It is not about getting hurt (shouldn't happen to regulars. guys are use to taking a no).
     
  20. SnowDancer

    SnowDancer Clave Commander

    My first thought too when reading the original article. While some guys lecture on the floor out of arrogance, a good percentage are doing it as a way to hit on beginners. I've heard they sometimes claim to be instructors, and offer 'free private lessons.'. :rolleyes:
     

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