What do you mean by "Guaguanco"?

Discussion in 'Just Dance' started by khabibul35, Aug 2, 2016.

  1. khabibul35

    khabibul35 Tumbao

    In another thread, a few users said they loved "guaguanco" despite obviously referring to salsa music. This makes me curious, what do salsa dancers mean by this?
     
    #1
  2. salsamaniac4ever

    salsamaniac4ever Son Montuno

    I would qualify this one as a typical Guaguanco de Casino or also called Son-Guaguanco from (as far as I know) the creator of this style Arsenio Rodriguez



    This is another Guaguanco. Listen to the similarities compared to the Arsenio Song. And you can also hear that the conga player plays the Guaguanco pattern with the "tres golpes". But note that he also plays at some parts the standard tumbao.

     
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  3. khabibul35

    khabibul35 Tumbao

    Ok, Arsenio's Son-Guaguanco makes sense, but that second song sounds like someone blew up a million pianos in sequence. I think it's a stretch to apply the label of son to anything beyond the first minute and the label of guaguanco throughout.

    Are salsa gaugauncos always so heavy on the paino?
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
  4. salsamaniac4ever

    salsamaniac4ever Son Montuno

    lots of guaguancos like to feature piano solos. but not necessarily
     
  5. wol

    wol Sonero

    I also fail to see how these relate to guaguanco.
     
  6. salsamaniac4ever

    salsamaniac4ever Son Montuno

    Like I said not necessarily. Featuring the piano is not part of making it a Guaguanco.

    Another nice example for a Guaguanco is Tito Puentes "Guaguanco Margarito". On his Mambo Birdland Album which is a live recording he introduces his song with the following words "We are going to play a Guaguanco now. The Guaguanco is a rhythm from Cuba, naturally. Originally from Africa....". If you have spotify or deezer just check out the album and skip to the song before Guaguanco Margarito and you can hear how Tito introduces the song.

     
  7. khabibul35

    khabibul35 Tumbao

    I hear the "guaguanco" a bit more there, but it's really hard for me to say the 3 examples you gave are in the same genre. You have to be listening to the music in a very particular way to notice it. I have the feeling that when you and kbitten say you like guaguanco, it's not the guaguanco part that you actually like but something else - maybe the jazziness of it?
     
  8. timberamayor

    timberamayor El Sabroso de Conguero

    A musicologist friend of mine talking about Arsenio's son guaguancó, which Arsenio called guaguancó de salón.

    "Arsenio's guaguancó de salón could in some sense be considered part of the son complex in terms of tempo and typical bass tumbaos. But the song form is very different and the lyrics usually salute legendary figures or entire barrios. In that sense, you might not be able to distinguish this type of guaguancó without understanding its lyrics."
     
  9. salsamaniac4ever

    salsamaniac4ever Son Montuno

    To make sure we're talking about the same thing here. It is not Rumba Guaguanco I'm referring to. It's basically Son-Montuno based with some specific amendments. Arsenio added a specific chord-progression played by Guitar, Piano etc and he added the "diana". Sometimes you can hear the bass or the congas playing the "tres golpes" which you can hear in Rumba Guaguanco. But its not necessary. The chuito song has a typical Guaguanco chord-progression in the beginning and the way the singer sings is also typical. I'm not a musician and it's challenging for me to describe music but I hope it's understandable what I'm trying to say :)
     
  10. Sabrosura

    Sabrosura El Sabroso de Conguero

    Guaguanco is definitely used to define certain songs under the NY salsa umbrella -- a "salsa guaguanco" search turns up many salsa dura songs with "guaguanco" in their title, and many salsa dura DJs have "guaguanco" as a separate category in their music collection. However, other than having a rumba guaguanco intro and perhaps at other points in the song, I'm not aware of a clear definition of guaguanco songs in the salsa dura context, the term seems to be used rather loosely to describe NY salsa dura songs. I actually asked a NY DJ about this and he said that NY musicians from the 60s/70s when referring to guaguanco meant a song that had the rumba guaguanco percussion structure, but to which they had added more instruments, trumpets, trombones, etc. So, that essentially means any salsa dura song can be called a guaguanco, as long as it has a guaguanco percussion rhythm included.

    Here is an older thread about this: http://www.salsaforums.com/threads/guaguanco.7217/
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2016
  11. kbitten

    kbitten Clave Commander

    I was talking about guaguanco ny or guaguanco pr..it has nothing to do with rumba guaguanco.

    I wouldnt put guaguanco margarito as a guaguanco song. the other one I couldnt see. In fact I said I like slow mid tempo guaguancos but later I realised I don't know any other type kkk
     
  12. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    I don't think the presence of the rumba guaguancó drum pattern is essential in a guaguancó.
     
  13. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    These 2 nail it:

     
  14. kbitten

    kbitten Clave Commander

    ditto!
     
  15. Sabrosura

    Sabrosura El Sabroso de Conguero

    Right, it must be just a simple coincidence that NY musicians began using this particular term for certain songs, after all "guaguanco" is such a common Spanish word with so many different meanings...
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2016
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  16. Smejmoon

    Smejmoon Clave Commander

    Also recently people address slow salsa andor son-montuno as guaguanco.
     
  17. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    So every guaguancó in mambo and salsa uses the rumba guaguancó pattern at some point?
     
  18. salsamaniac4ever

    salsamaniac4ever Son Montuno

    I'm with @DJ Yuca on this one. Guaguanco de Casino does not require necessarily the Guaguanco pattern although lots of Guaguancos de Casino make use of it in the song but not all the way through. It's more about the specific arrangement Arsenio created with the chord-progression (or call it melody line) and the style of the singers (stretching the notes and the la-la-la-laaaaa). But there are also instrumental Guaguancos where you can hear that the instruments are kinda taking over the part of stretching the notes.

    And yes, most of the Salsa Dura songs are basically Guaguancos. But it's like Johnny Pacheco ones stated in an interview. They took the Afro-Cuban-Rhythms and made the arrangements more agressive but they didn't change the ryhthm or the essence of the rhythms. Thats why imho a Guaguanco de Casino from Arsenio sounds different to a Salsa Dura. But the similarities in term of the chord-progression etc are still there and audible. Of course you have to know what to listen for.

    Maybe that is one of the things that bores the sh... out of me. Going e.g. to a so called vinyl party where the DJs mainly play Salsa tunes from the 70s which are mostly Salsa Duras and therefore Guaguancos. I don't think that this is the only music of this era but it seems to me that most of the DJs are just looking for that kind of music. Additionally that stuff just sounds old. What happened to recent recordings, etc?
     
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  19. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    I happen to be a big fan of vintage mambo and salsa dura, and I love guaguancós . . . but I agree with you. There's a reason why no band back in the day played incessant guaguancós: obviously the variety in the music is one of its strengths, and by discarding that variety the inevitable result is boredom for anyone who is actually into music.

    I remember hearing a DJ once who played a set of pure guaguancós, every single one of which even had the word guaguancó in the title. To make matters worse all were recorded from his rare vinyls and sounded very flat. Yet someone I know (a collector) described it as one of the best sets he'd ever heard. :rolleyes:
     
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  20. Sabrosura

    Sabrosura El Sabroso de Conguero

    As none of us here are musicians/musicologists, we are wasting our time with uninformed guesses unless someone actually has feedback from a musician, which is what I tried to share above. What I do know for a fact is that many salsa dura songs are guarachas, which was explained to me by an well-known musician and Latin music teacher from NYC. Can they be both guaracha and guaguanco at the same time? Who knows.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2016
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