Discussion in 'Just Dance' started by Capibaribe, Feb 6, 2007.
Just so I'll know how I might respond, to which other spinning techniques are you comparing the Santo Rico method? I'm familiar with the Santo Rico and Seaon "Stylist" techniques, and I use and teach a hybrid of both.
One technique that I checked out but didn't like was Edie's, which wasn't even remotely as smooth and clean as the ones I've adopted. Maybe it's the LA-style thing that turned me off. So maybe the Santo Rico technique seems not to "take up as much energy" as other techniques because of the basic differences between the NY and LA styles.
I haven't tried any other spinning techniques. I've only learned and used SR's methods. And when I mean less energy, which is hard to describe in words: Once I get a good prep, I can just "sit" and spin. I don't need to gather much momentum during from my arms, hips, or feet.
And by comparison, considering I haven't learned other techniques, I only compare how it looks. So, when I've observed what others consider really good spinners, and of course there are definitely other outstanding fast spinners out there... Most of the time, they're not as clean as an SR spin.
And when I mean a "clean" spin, I'm looking at speed, accurate spotting, not a lot of paddling, not traveling, and maintaining the same level (not bending and straightening knees). And for the really good spinners, doing all of the above and still be able to spin at different speeds, not just fast or slow...
What do you think?
I'm asking this only from a research standpoint: When you "sit and spin," how much momentum are you getting from the leader, since you're not creating much on your own?
When I spin, the bulk of my momentum (basically, all of it) comes from my upper body. Pushing with the feet, in my experience, almost guarantees a fall in the very near future. And how are the hips used in spinning? I'm just wondering whether followers have a different approache from leaders, since we're essentially on our own when we spin. And the Santo Rico ladies seem to agree that followers also should carry their own weight when spinning...
Maybe your technique uses less energy now because it's become so solid. It's become exponentially easier for me since the days when I used to nearly dislocate my entire skeleton when trying to spin. After a while, spinning was almost like a reflex...
Clean is nice, but control is SO important. For instance there's a move where I spin the girl one and a half times before passing her back under the arm. The leads gotta be very clear (I've spent a lot of time honing it) but ladies who set off for two regardless struggle with it. Lossie told me once it was an un-leadable move (no disrespect, it was just a concept she apparently had never encountered and this was my early days of leading this - I've since lead her through it perfectly on numerous occasions, except for the surprised look on her face!)
I've been taught (and taught) numerous different methods, though I couldn't tell you what they're called.
As KP says, for a double (or even several doubles) a pulsed lead is fine, but as Sweavo suggests, for triples and beyond, the leader needs to supply some of the drive.
Leading on 1, if I'm looking for a triple, I'll start the turn lead on 3, making sure (also as Sweavo suggests) that I've time to get the brakes on half a turn before the finish. I've only found a few ladies who I can successfully put through a quad between 3 and 8, and even less who can come through it and keep composure.
Can't remember who it was said it, but whichever teqhnique you use, practice is the key, and remember ladies, sometimes you don't get the luxury of having a leader give you a full prep!
The best spinners to dance with are definitely the ones who don't actually need us to lead them.
Pulsed lead. Veddy interesting.
I have been noticing for a long time that with some (most?) leaders it is very easy to just keep spinning until they give you a nice clean stop,
whereas with some I don't read the signals well at all. I always think they mean me to stop when they really want me to keep going, resulting in choppy spins with changing rates of speed.
I've gotten a little better at this over time, but really what I've done is figured out how to read the situation early and put a quick Band-Aid over the problem, either by paddling or by slapping on some momentum with an arm-styling cheat.
I guess the guys in the latter group may be using this 'pulsed' lead? I guess if I don't feel a continuous lead I interpret that as meaning the end is coming and I should put on the brakes.
So my questions for you guys are,
1) What's the advantage? Why would you specifically use the 'pulsed' lead rather than a smooth one?
and 2) If a guy is using a pulsed lead for multiple spins, how do I tell whether he means me to stop or keep going at any given point?
Welllllllll, for a double spin, the woman should be turning under her own steam with just a light lead to say "go", on1, on the 4 and 6. If she can't turn under her own steam, it's a hell of a lot of work to crank your partner round and it's not pleasant for the woman either. When I personally say "pulsed" I just mean a light push on the 4th and 6th beat, it's not a hard pumping round. When I want my partner to stop, I'll squeeze lightly on her hand and slow the lead down about half a beat from the end.
If I'm leading a triple spin (I've not got up to quadruples yet) I won't use the "pulse" method, but will lead a much smoother lead.
So, in answer to your question, don't get the wrong impression about a pulsed lead - it doesn't mean yank, wait, yank wait ... it's flick, wait , flick, wait because we want to leave our partner in control of how they spin for doubles. And to tell you to stop, we increase pressure a little and slow out lead down to bring you to a stop (well, that's the idea anyway). To be honest, it's all in the timing.
Eeee lad, yer bring a tear to my eye, right enough.
In a triple or quad, it's like the leader is saying to the follower (through his lead, obviously)
"Round and round and round you go"
But with a pulsed lead for a double it's like saying
"Please spin, please spin,"
As KP says, it's mostly in the timing but the advantage is it gives the leader additional control, as long as the follower can respond accordingly. I remember when I was still new, leading what I thought was a double, and the girl did one spin (4-5) then stopped and smiled at me waiting for a further lead. I soon learnt that if I wanted to spin her twice then I had to ask her twice. Some aren't keen on this approach, but I loved the control Charlotte (for that is her name) was able to exercise and the fact that it suddenly opened up a whole new world of opportunity for my leading. For example, a single, fast spin on 4-5 but followed with something else on 6-7,
Or I ask the lady to spin, then knowing she's getting on with it (her job) I can then be doing something else such as turning myself or preparing my lead for the next move (my job).
I danced with some of the Santo Rico girls during BritSalsaFest and to be honest I couldn't say I was that impressed with either their following or spinning. They felt heavy and lacked smooth connection and this is the last thing you want when you're tired. Could have been me, or that I dance on1, or just tiredness. I got the feeling their leads supply most of the power in spinning and this concurs with my observation from some video clips pre and post congress. I'll see if I can find one publicy available to post the link.
They do look fantastic with their own leaders, however have you seen the size of their arms?! By the end of the night I was building those muscles..
In contrast, I danced with Burju, Lil Liz, Edie, Daniella de Francesco, Shelley, Elena, Iris de Brito, some of Fogarate and Salsa Dance Squad, Susana Montero, some girls from Puero Rico and others and found no problem spinning them 4 times if I wanted.
I used to be obsessed with different spinning techniques and can do both a pulsed and smooth lead with different grips and size of halo. The irony is that as my spin lead has improved over the years I now spin girls less!
Last year I reached the stage where I could spin good spinners 12 or more times accurately and this year 25 or more. However when I'm dancing I tend to sync everything with the music so often I only do 2 or 3 now where I could do 4. It took me a few dances with the pro's to remember to spin them more when appropriate as I could feel some wanted to.
Burju, Lil Liz, Edie all rocked big time dance wise! This was the first time I've dance with Lil Liz and I must say I had such a good time I kept going back for more.
There were also some stellar followers from London who aren't in any dance companies - Suzi and Luisa being the most memorable.
For these girls a feather-like touch produced 4 spins without thinking about it.
Beyond technique I think a lot of it comes down to getting used to someones style and there are naturally those dancers who you click with straight away.
Good job on leading all those spins Azzey!!
Good observation. But I'm not so sure about the arms. I don't have those "arms." Maybe it's more coincidential because I happen to have paperdoll-thin arms. :?
But I could see when you say about being heavy. They're accustomed to their lead and do look the best dancing with each other. Sometimes I feel like I get real heavy too, and then I adjust to the lead. Not always successful though being that some leads are also used to a certain follow.
I wonder if I feel heavy spinning though. That is for the guys that lead spinning differently. Most of the time, I'll get complimented for being fast and light (from On1ers too), but I know there are some times, when my body is just draaagggging. I know my follow can improve, but obviously no ones is going to critique you right after social dancing so it'd just take practice. Then again.... I don't really dance that much anymore....
I'm sure if you ask for crits you'll get some!
I have, but they don't give any.
I think azzey meant the arms of Santo Rico men (they are big fellas right enough).
Oh duh!!! Hahahahahhahah :lol: ..maybe that does make more sense...
then again...hmm..I'd have to think about that one too.... :?:
Totally. I have seen them dancing at Cache a couple of times and I always think Thomas Guerrero looks like he is working a meat grinder when he cranks those spins out. They have a very forceful, athletic-looking style.
(Interestingly, Lara mentioned spinning slowly - I have never seen them spin slowly though. They always spin like drills!)
Guess it's true everywhere; it comes down to 'dance chemistry,' which is maybe just a vague phrase for the leader and follower having similar/parallel expectations.
That is true, they do spin in a drill-like fashion. But spinning at different speeds and being able to control them is what I think is impressive. And not all fast/good spinners can do that.
Back in the day, Thomas used to spin Amaryllis Cintron like that. He would spin her slow for a few bars, then go fast, and then really fast...and then even go back to spinning her slow, speed it up again, and then stop on a dime. This of course was multiple spins through multiple bars. And the amazing part was that she didn't travel one inch (or so it seemed), her spot was consistent regardless of speed, she didn't paddle even once. It was just soooo clean.
Noob, how's Cache these days?
Over my head.
I still show up every once in a while though, because there's noplace else to go on Thursdays and sometimes I just really need a fix.
"I danced with some of the Santo Rico girls during BritSalsaFest and to be honest I couldn't say I was that impressed with either their following or spinning. They felt heavy and lacked smooth connection and this is the last thing you want when you're tired. Could have been me, or that I dance on1, or just tiredness. I got the feeling their leads supply most of the power in spinning and this concurs with my observation from some video clips pre and post congress."
Im on2 in nyc, some of my fav follows are from SR, they can follow just about anything i can throw at them and some. Regarding supplying most of the power for spinning, as a lead thats how I was taught to spin the girls, I provide the spin momentum and stop em.
I love ladies that can follow afingertip lead, be it one spin or several. Being lazy like what I am, I don't like to spend too much time having to drag my partners around.
Anyone come across Anna Trant? Beautiful, composed triples to a finger tip lead - I ask, she complies 8) . - I found this out about her when I was treating her extra gently while she recovered from two broken arms!
(I believe Anna's teaching Body Movement in Guernsey this coming weekend).
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