Recommendations: Songs with 3-2 clave (ideally Cuban musicians)

Discussion in 'Just Dance' started by manzanadulce, Jan 12, 2017.

  1. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'El Diferente' Canales

    That then makes sense. For an untrained dancers responding to change in clave, whether it is implied or very clear, can be very difficult. Especially to detect the change in clave direction when it is the implied clave! Because there are so many things happening in the dancing. Detecting an implied clave change is the first challenge (if clave is being played out and not implied, then this part is largely moot). Responding to it via stepping is the second challenge.

    It is much easier to detect direction of implied clave while one is listening to the song, than when one is dancing. If the dancer is alert and listening throughout the music, it still may take a couple of bars or more to realize that the clave direction has changed. Basically the untrained dancers are then ignoring the clave. That they just happened to dance correctly when the music is in the 3-2 clave direction is similar to broken clock being correct twice a day :)
     
    #41
    manzanadulce likes this.
  2. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Ok now I understand. And you think this style of dance i.e. the man breaking forwards on the 3 side of the clave is common amongst Cubans? As most tunes are 2-3, that would mean most untrained Cubans dance on5 rather than on1. (Or dance on6 rather than on2 when contratiempo.) Has anyone else aside from that MCC guy and his disciples ever noticed this phenomenon?

    When you say they are not adept at dealing with clave changes, what do you mean? If you mean they ignore the clave changes, that could be classed as a legitimate way of dealing with them.
     
  3. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Wait a minute - why is the lead breaking forward on the 3 side of the clave dancing 'correctly'?
     
  4. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    To add: I have serous doubts about this phenomenon actually existing. I take anything that MCC joker says with a very large pinch of salt.
     
  5. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    Interesting discussion. What I was told is that the clave does not change in a song. The rest of the band changes.
     
  6. manzanadulce

    manzanadulce Sonero

    You are technically correct, although most people hear the clave sound either 3 strokes or 2 in the first bar that clave is audible. That is not to argue that 2-3 clave actually exists because 3-3 clave is the original son clave and is also considered absolute clave. The music can change around 3-2 to make the 1 seem like the 5 and many people hear this is as a clave shift when it may not actually be. Either way the concept of 2-3 clave is completely foreign to most Cubans and untrained dancers.
     
  7. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    So I guess this would explain why people would keep dancing the same way even if the rest of the band changes. The dancers simply continue to respect the clave and not how the band is changed. Which would mean that even if the 1 becomes a 5, the dancers will keep on going as before because they hear the clave. If they are used to one type of clave then they will keep dancing that way for all songs (whether clave is there or not). This is my feeling at least.
     
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  8. That can be the case, example Los Van Van - Somos Cubanos utilizes a 3 bar turnaround. I wouldn't even say the band changes, they just change their point of reference via the composition. But in some cases the clave does actually change. Examples are Los Van Van - Soy Anejo, Charanga Habanera - Homenaje a los cabilleros (more than one change in this song).

    This is a nice song which is largely in 3-2.
     
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  9. manzanadulce

    manzanadulce Sonero

    Ok, well, go visit Cuba and see for yourself. Nobody said you had to take his word for it. Or mine, for that matter.
     
  10. manzanadulce

    manzanadulce Sonero

    Yes, They have a way to deal with them:?by ignoring them. I wouldn't say this is an adept way, however.

    As we agreed before, they are many ways to interpret music. Absolute clave is just one of them.
     
  11. Does the clave change really matter when you dance? It's not like the on beat displaces, the pulse remains the same. I know nothing about salsa dancing though, do you guys emphasise the bomba note (the and of two on the three side )?
    More so even if the clave changes, if it's via a three bar phase no adjustment should be necessary.
     
  12. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    I'd love to however I can't see it happening in the immediate future. Until then, if you should happen to see a video of a load of Cubans social dancing to a song in 2-3 clave, and most of them are dancing on5 (i.e. so the leads are breaking forwards on the 3 side of the clave), I'd love to see it.

    (If you find a video of Cubans ignoring clave changes and/or dancing a random mix of on 1 and on 5 i.e. regarding the count as simply 1,2,3 repeated - as I mentioned earlier, I have already witnessed such things in the real world.)
     
  13. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    I thought you wanted to learn to ignore clave changes?
     
  14. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Yes, clave change is a misnomer. No offence but it has been discussed already in great detail on the forum. However . . . .
    In Afro-Cuban music from NY clave changes are almost always of the 1st kind referred to above i.e. the clave doesn't change, the music on top does. But there are occasional examples where 1 side of the clave is actually repeated. It seems far more common in S American salsa or in timba, but it can occasionally also be found in NY mambo and salsa. We even have a great thread that collates some examples: http://salsaforums.com/threads/interesting-clave-changes.29071/
     
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  15. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'El Diferente' Canales

    What is absolute clave? Nothing in any music of any genre is ever absolute :)

    There are two ways that musicians can play with or around clave:

    1. Clave remains the same, the music changes so that the musical 1 of the previous part of music is now musical 5 (from the dancer's perspective). Someone dancing on musical 1 would be dancing on musical 5 after the change.
    2. Clave changes and the music changes. The musical 1 stays the same but the direction of the clave has changed. i.e. some who started dancing on musical 1, would still be dancing on musical one after the change.
     
  16. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    3. Clave changes from son clave to rumba clave (or vice versa).
    4. There is a passage (or more than one passage) with no clave (e.g. all those tunes that have 6/8 passages).

    There are probably other options too.
     
  17. manzanadulce

    manzanadulce Sonero

    yes, as I said, so that I can dance with untrained Cubans.

    I never said it was the BEST or most ELEVATED way to deal with music. That doesn't mean it doesn't have value, especially given the numerous ways of interpreting music.
     
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  18. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Agreed.
     
    manzanadulce likes this.
  19. My question remains: Are there different steps of dance for each side of the clave?
    If the clave changes via 3 bar phrase then it doesnt matter, surely you just keep dancing and you are still in time...It's just a rythmic illusion that the "1" has re positioned but really the clave has been continuous the whole time which means no adjustments for the steps need to be made. Someone please clarify this for me as I am not a dancer.
     
  20. Tomm

    Tomm Sonero

    The steps are the same...Its just that as a lead you're used to go forward on1 with the left foot (on1)... It feels strange going back on1 with the right foot... But neither is wrong, if one was wrong then either the lead or the follow would be wrong :)
    At least for the basic step there is no difference, iam not sure if the Figures somehow repect the clave, but I dont think so...
     

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