marketing On2 while making fun of On1

Discussion in 'Just Dance' started by granrey, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. granrey

    granrey Sonero

    I was in dance studio for a social party this weekend which included a drop in class at the beginning.

    The teacher decided to teach On2.

    While explaining the difference. the teacher was showing On1. 1,2,3 (feet together), 5,6,7 (feet together) and very robotic with extreme pause on beats 4 and 8 (feet together). Of course showing this will make On1 looks horrible.

    Then On2, it only started on feet together but never returned to it, very smooth and sexy.

    All students were interested in On2 now and I can't blame them lol
  2. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'Fania' Pacheco

    Good way to market :D

    I haven't seen any beginner on2 class in club settings but many on1 classes. They always tell to bring feet together. So he was right making fun of on1 instructors :D
  3. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    Delivering your point by exaggerating things to absurd is a very useful skill in teaching.
  4. Peason

    Peason Son

    Good teachers should be able to deliver there point without ridiculing others.
    Ciaran Hegarty and Smejmoon like this.
  5. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    I'm not quite sure that's the case here.
  6. Smejmoon

    Smejmoon El Sabroso de Conguero

    Also it is ridiculous for teachers to demonstrate on1 if they can't even get the basic step smooth.
  7. granrey

    granrey Sonero

    but why he needs to show On1 with feet together on beats 4 and 8?

    Feet together is legit but showing it like that's the only way to dance On1 is not right. Very few people dance feet together.

    Specially, if he is trying to justify how smooth and sexy On2 is.
  8. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    I think that by "On1" and "On2", he meant "LA" and "NY".

    "Classic" LA is danced 'quick-quick-stop'.
    (as opposed to the "smooth" NY style).

    But you are definitely right: On1 and On2 can go either way...(Not to mention old-school LA is somewhat dead).
  9. Smejmoon

    Smejmoon El Sabroso de Conguero

    It's the other way around.
  10. MrR

    MrR Son Montuno

    @Dissonant Harmony harmony seems to think, that the teacher is using a "reductio ad absurdum" . But he actually isn't, as he is setting different standards to the 2 styles. One is danced technical elaborated, one is danced with cliché bad technique. (the RaA argument usually is used to show fallacies, like "special pleading". Using is to support a positive statement is rare and often ends in a fallacy itself.)
    Instead we got a "strawman fallacy" . He is pretending, that that is how On1 is danced and then presenting a counter position against the mocking version of On1.

    Using that kind of fallacies is typical for people who are trying to indoctrinate and who are lacking legit arguments.
    Instead of presenting both sides and showing why he thinks his to be the better one, he is simply using his position of power (nobody there to represent On1) to mock the other side. He simply is bullying.

    People like him are detrimental to the scene, as they form camps, preventing the flux of information and experience.
    I live in one where camps of different styles have fragmented the (rather small) scene, leading to an overall decline and drying out of the non-disco venues due to a lack of customers. Still the ones initiating the fragmentation are some kind of cult leaders within their circles and their followers put the blame on the people who "dance wrongly". ´
    Despite some of them being good at teaching technique, these cults locally have not produced a single dancer with a noteworthy style, just a bunch of marionettes and copycats. (The few noteworthy dancers origin from before these cults (10+ years) or denied choosing a side.)
    Live2dance, Peason and terence like this.
  11. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

  12. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    Frankie is closing the feet together a lot while dancing, and it's on2, and it's smooth, so I don't get where is the problem here ;)
    Joco likes this.
  13. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    No. Dissonant Harmony just proposed that perhaps the teacher didn't try to make On1 look bad by misrepresentation. (and that this was merely granrey's interpretation: plurium interrogationum).

    I said there there was a chance the teacher exaggerated the "archetype" characteristics of LAon1 and NYon2 to emphasize the difference the style. (and not to make LAon1 look bad).

    *If we do assume that he did try to make LAon1 look bad (b misrepresentating it) - then your post is right on-spot.

    **The term you were looking for was not 'reducto ad absurdum'. Sadly, I don't remember the name of the fitting one.
    Chris_Yannick likes this.
  14. granrey

    granrey Sonero

    He did couple other things as well.

    One of them was to mention that On2 goes better with the music. He was not doing the usual counts as 123-567 or 23-67 but instead something like "tu tum PA, tu tum PA" he was showing how beats 2 and 6 coincide with the "PA" sound of the drums. He played a song that stressed that.

    He really mentioned to improve your salsa , you should transition to On2.

    The funny thing is that he teaches mainly On1........BUT markets On2 as advanced salsa.....when he could just teach On2 instead.

    It's kind of like he wants the students to take couple levels of On1 salsa then couple levels of On2 with him as well.

    When in reality, you could learn On2 from day 1.

    He also mention saying "quick quick slow" does not work for any dance and another teacher (from ballroom cha cha) backed him up.
    Dissonant Harmony and MAMBO_CEC like this.
  15. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    Yet another "teacher" after the money!
    Jag75 likes this.
  16. MrR

    MrR Son Montuno

    Well, by what @granrey explains the teacher is clearly trying to represent On2 as "superior" to a full extent.

    But I think I found the term I was looking for: "appeal to ridicule"
    (To people believing in a position a valid RaA can sound like a version of AtR and it is a common tactic to disguise a AtR as RaA. And that is dishonesty and dishonesty enraged me.)

    And yes, I see that way of teaching more as a kind of indoctrination and that is something that has to be countered.
    Sadly it goes along with what I know about our On2 scene, so I have the tendency to believe him.
  17. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Teachers ridiculing or at the least criticising other styles is very common in the UK, particularly with 'Cuban salsa' teachers (not all I'm sure) making disparaging remarks about 'crossbody salsa'. I've witnessed it a number of times. The comments are chiefly along the lines of: 'Cuban salsa' (most of these people never actually refer to it as casino) is authentic and 'crossbody salsa' is synthetic. Or a less extreme version: there are different types of salsa and 'Cuban salsa' is the most authentic. (Which obviously infers that other styles are less authentic.)

    Ironically, the worst example of this behaviour I have heard of is from a 'Cuban salsa' teacher whose dancing looks nothing like the way Cubans dance. (I'll refrain from posting videos.) And who uses a lot of English language music in their classes.

    The on 2 teachers dissing on 1 (whilst making the bulk of their money from it) may well exist too, however as on 2 is uncommon here I wouldn't know.

    To be fair, if you consider something superior to something else it's only natural to share those opinions. A lot of the discussions on here are along those lines. On the other hand it's not very professional to down the competition, plus if the instructor in question has not done much research then they are spreading misinformation.

    And as Mr R mentions it can fragment the scene, although it can also unify the scene because everyone on the scene ends up dancing the same style to the same music. However it's a form of unity based on a very narrow conception of what salsa music and dance are, which is a problem for those whose knowledge transcends such limits, and for those who want to be well informed.
  18. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    If you look at salsa in its indigenous forms, there are a variety of timings. The salsa scene has done away with that, which is a shame. That is an issue that goes beyond 'Cuban' vs 'crossbody' or on1 vs on 2.
  19. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'Fania' Pacheco

    On2 can be taught from day one. I was taught that way and many others have learnt it too.

    There is a wide spread misconception that on2 is more advanced than on1 or that advanced dancers dance on on2. It is further perpetuated by the the instructors like above. If I were to get a dollar for the number of times I heard dancers say on2 is for advance dancers irl, I will have dew thousand dollars in my pocket.

    Which is better is subjective to personal preference and liking. There is nothing wrong in saying "I personally like abc better than efg because of xyz".
  20. Marisha

    Marisha Descarga

    I am a follower, and I think knowing and dancing well all possible salsa only enrich my skills. I love salsa, and I will enjoy dancing and learning any salsa style. I feel bad when people try to convince me what one style is better than another. I remember, when I just started to dance salsa I came to salsa party in Kiev and a guy asked me, "What would you like to dance: On1, On2 or Cuban?". I was impressed:D
    I like how Edie said(funny video):D
    MAMBO_CEC likes this.

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