Is Kizomba just dry humping?

Discussion in 'Salser@s Anonymous' started by nowhiteshoes, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. Smejmoon

    Smejmoon Clave Commander

    So @vit, you're saying kizomba is not only dry humping, but also "the way get to know the new dance partner of Albir"?

    This is obviously true. There are quite a few kizombies, I don't get to see, because I skip their parties.
     
  2. vit

    vit Clave Commander

    I found interesting his sentence "... because now the Kizomba world is different from how it used to be, unfortunately there're more sad and ugly things, but we hope it'll change"

    I was on a few of his workshops last week. What a difference between them and a couple of local kizomba "instructors".
     
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  3. wildbill20056

    wildbill20056 Sabor Ambassador

    The more I go on, the more I get to a 'live and let live' mind set.

    That said, put Kizomba in a different room at any festival, and always recognise that in 'our' world it is the visiting cousin who many of us would rather sat in a corner and played with a knife.

    One of the great 'casualties' of the 'sensual' dance movement, be that humpy Bachata or Kizomba etc, is that folks have lost sight of the greater sensual offerings of salsa/mambo.

    Salsa/mambo will always, always provide the dance with more to work with emotionally and physically. The music is rich with sex, passion, excitement, as well as the other myriad ideas and emotions.

    The fact is you have to work harder to be able to express all of this as a salsero than you do in either Bachata and Kizomba, because their far simpler musical and dance structures are built expressly around one or two ideas.
     
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  4. vit

    vit Clave Commander

    Yes, that's probably the reason why sensual styles of kizomba gained that much popularity recently - much easier to express it than in salsa, at least in sensual-grinding-meditative style dominating in my area. There are of course other styles - angolan, purtuguese, french, various fusion styles (with hip hop etc), actually every area seems to have some distinctive way of dancing it, and there seems to be much arguing what is kizomba and what isn't kizomba among promoters of variuos styles
     
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  5. Groove On

    Groove On Son Montuno

    I went to a festival where they put Salsa in one room and Bachata/Kizomba in a 2nd room. The 4 hour non-stop Salsa room (no Bachata) was a blast but it got really intense! It was fun, but I was relieved when we finally got to the after-party and the DJs could mix it up more.

    I took a bunch more Kizomba workshops with Nelson Campos and Kwenda Lima and finally got the African Ginga/Jinga motion programmed better into my system. With my background in Latin Ballroom and Salsa, I probably had to do a lot of extra work to "get it". I basically had to deconstruct and forget my Cuban Motion and just learn Ginga/Jinga from scratch. Thankfully they now seem to be co-existing peacefully in my system ! But I'm still not a big fan of the music, I'm only worth about 5-6 Kizomba dances a night.

    The teachers I spoke with are amazed by the immense growth of Kizomba, and they seem to be seeing three movements, first there's traditional Kizomba, then a fusion which brings in a lot of the faster Semba movements, Nelson called it Kisemba. Finally a version which seems to be a fusion coming from the Western world. It's looks like Argentine Tango movements used in Kizomba with less of the undulating Jinga/Ginga hip movement, which they referred to as "Robotic Style".
     
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  6. vit

    vit Clave Commander

    So how would you describe the differences between cuban motion and ginga?

    I checked a lot of clips and attended various workshops (including both Nelson and Kwenda) and noticed that body movement in kizomba can have various forms, depending on the dancer (even among well known instructors) and music. Generally, in faster songs / semba, it tends to be somewhat similar to body movement in cuban salsa, while in slower songs / tarraxinha movement, where the body and hips are more relaxed, it has some similarities with bounce in b/r samba (which is based on maxixe, which is, according to some internet sources, essentially how black people danced polka in Brazil somewhere around 1920-1925). The slow version is problematic in my area for most people that danced salsa or ballroom previously

    We already had some discussion about that in "kizomba technique" thread
     
  7. Groove On

    Groove On Son Montuno

    I'm not a teacher, but I can share my notes with you. This is just from talking with and hanging out with some African friends and asking a lot of questions.

    1. Ginga at it's root seems to mean "swing" or "sway". This seems to be the base meaning from which all the other definitions come from.

    2. In general use, men use it to describe the nice and natural sway of a woman's hips, specifically African women and the stereotype about how they walk and the rolling motion of the hips.

    3. But it's also used to describe the continuous walking motion of any person. Of course this naturally becomes a judgement and in casual conversation I've heard the appreciative "she's got nice Ginga!" to the "he ain't got no Ginga". In this way of use, it starts to become like "Sabor". This leads me to definition number 4.

    4. Everybody has Ginga, meaning a natural sway/swing in their body movement, but what that looks like is different from place to place and person to person. One of my friends described how people from different parts of Africa have a different Ginga.

    4. In dance classes, I've heard it used as a way of saying natural body movement. Though of course in a room of 10 people, natural body movement could be 20 different things :) it's also is used for the sidestep walking move in Kizomba and the undulating back and forth movement of the hips.

    5. Just an addendum, Ginga is also used in Capoeira to describe the side to side swinging body movement that Capoeira is known for. There's also a historical person named Queen Ginga.

    My go-to Jedi mind trick comes from Nelson. he said imagine the lazy afternoon walk of an African woman carrying a a pot of water on her head. She doesn't swing the heel, she lifts the heel and plants it flat on the ground, literally staying grounded. And while you can twist the upper body around its center, you have to keep the upper body straight or you'll spill the water (so no side to side Cuban motion). The grounded weight transfer occurs in the hips. Press straight up/down bending the hips which creates the undulating Ginga motion in the hips, similar to Samba. FWIW when I do the Latin Ballroom Samba walk it seems to activate the same muscles in my hips.

    When I dance Kizomba there's a sort of back and forth movement between partners, the feeling is like your trying to make her do a body wave, unlike the side to side twisting motion of d. bachata or salsa.

    Couple more notes:
    I tried dancing Salsa with a bit of the grounded Ginga movement, I found my Salsa became a lot more Afro! Very interesting to experiment with that. It's also fun to throw in a bit of Ginga movement into Bachata, makes for an interesting accent when dancing.
     
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  8. Groove On

    Groove On Son Montuno

    And one more note, Ginga is the portuguese spelling. If you want to "English" it, I'd spell it Jinga.
     
  9. vit

    vit Clave Commander

    Funny thing is, when I started dancing b/r latin long ago, I was taught the same stories, just it was a cuban woman carrying something on the head. We were taught to dance having the upper body still and using the hips. Then, when I started dancing salsa, I had to le-learn cuban movement using the chest and without fake hip movement. Way of teaching b/r latin also changed in my area in the meantime similar way, although some still teach body movement the old way. And when I was a kind of satisfied with my body movement, I had to learn a body movement similar to the first one again. And also, even in salsa world, some people are using "more chest" and some "more hips" and some combine both. It's actually the same thing with two extremes and anything between those is possible. Also, in kizomba world, some people use more undulating (bodywave like) body movement and some less or none. So there is no easy answer to the question what is "correct body movement" in kizomba

    Here are two examples of the same instructor (I attended some of their workshops a few months ago). In one clip, he is dancing semba, with more chest action and usage of the frame, due to the faster dance. In the second one, he is dancing slow kizomba / tarraxinha, with very relaxed body and action mostly in the hips.



     
    Last edited: May 15, 2015
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  10. Aurel

    Aurel Son Montuno

    I'm not really sure there is something as the "correct body movement" in kizomba. Sure, there is some common technique, basic movement and good manners, but other parts seem to change with the music, pace, dance style, country, etc. One part of this is that there is no "kizomba frame". You have to have a frame, but there is no particular frame, exactly prescribed hold, etc. That is why you will find people dancing with their left elbow (for a lead) high, middle, low and hand up above shoulder, more to the side, almost on the chest or pretty much every other way you like, basically accommodating for height differences or arm length, type of music, particular danced figure or simply personal taste.

    Maybe having no "correct body movement" in kizomba means just what it is - an african social dance danced by people without any sort of dance education.
     
  11. vit

    vit Clave Commander

    Well ... in salsa and b/r latin, we have "cuban motion". When we - non-cubans are dancing those dances, we try to learn dancing the way latin people are moving and dancing - to the various extent, with cuban salsa being probably closer to it, xbody salsa not that close (depending again on the country) and b/r latin even further from that goal (as it is ballroom with some latin flavor). For latin people, it's natural to move like that, it's part of their culture, while we have to learn it. So we also have some dance teachers who try to help us and we are paying them some money (some people spending quite significant amount of both money and time). So if you dance with a salsero from another part of the world, there are chances you will have quite nice dance

    With emerging of kizomba, my expectations were similar - to learn something from another culture and try dancing the way they dance. I didn't need kizomba to dance in closed hold - I used to dance ballroom in closed hold and also, before kizomba, in this are there was social dancing with the same basic 1, basic 2 and basic 3 timing like kizomba, called "social foxtrot", which is essentially very simplified version of ballroom quickstep (in other parts of the world, under the same name there are some different dances, as terence informed me a while ago) and can also include some open moves (like in semba). And I didn't need kizomba to dance sensual - we were doing these things in elementary school and on birthday parties before kizomba, salsa and bachata arrived here

    So I expected from kizomba instructors to be of help here, but so far, they mostly failed, so development of the dance took its own chaotic way, and now they (african instructors mostly) start arguing that what people are dancing here is not kizomba - and they are correct. We can see pretty much everything danced under name kizomba. It's also one of the reasons why kizomba became quite unpopular among salseros
     
  12. Groove On

    Groove On Son Montuno

    "Correct" body movement is an awkward term, it implies there's only 1 way to move.

    A better term is natural body movement, which should happen if you apply technique "correctly", doesn't really matter if it's learned while growing up or studied in a class.

    Additionally, natural body movement isn't the same for everyone. It is literally different for every "body", but it doesn't mean a lack of technique.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2015
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  13. vit

    vit Clave Commander

  14. Winston

    Winston Descarga

    Let's compare older with newer kizomba.

    Above the new kizomba from a few months ago. Next, kizomba from ten years ago. Skip to 1:38, the point where the dancing starts.

     
  15. Smejmoon

    Smejmoon Clave Commander

    How do you see these dances by masters represent scene and changes in it?
     
  16. Winston

    Winston Descarga

    That's a good point
     
  17. Aurel

    Aurel Son Montuno

    I don't think you can really compare those 2 videos as the "old" and the "new" way of dancing kizomba. Kwenda is really dancing passada and his dancing is vastly different even when compared to other dancers of "traditional kizomba" from that time (and contemporary as well).

    Also, both videos show completely different music, one being a classic from Cabo Verde, the other one being a modern remix sung in english. Dance-style-wise the dancers use the more appropriate style to the music. That said, both dancers clearly prefer mutually different types of music, dance style and musicality.

    Wha I think could be actually compared is the music that is presented as "kizomba" these days (by some) in contrast to kizomba from a few years ago.
     
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  18. Many people dance Kizomba in full embrace as is Argentine Tango, Blues, some people grind away with Bachata. Body to body you can make what you want of it, respectful or slutty. I don't dance full embrace with a stranger or the very young ladies but with somebody I know and older than my kids, if it feels welcome, I do full embrace and enjoy the dance. What I like about Kizomba is that it is improvisational and it has a catchy rhythm. I cannot take a full diet of it, partly b/c I am just an advanced beginner and get bored and b/c Salsa is my main love. I DJ frequently and my usual mix for 3 hours is about 25 Salsa 6 Bachata 3 Kizomba 2 Cha 3 Merengue 2 Cumbia but we are quite eclectic in these parts (Durham NC) as opposed to some places where playing non salsa at a salsa dance is verboten. I find even the people who don't dance Kiz enjoy the listening and watching. I don't care for the contemporary R & B style in English but like the Angolan or Cape Verde.
     
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  19. SnowDancer

    SnowDancer Clave Commander

    I'm as confused as anybody about what is 'correct' kizomba. My most recent workshop was with Eddie Vents, and he teaches it much like Argentine Tango. The embrace is exactly the same, both people leaning in so they're touching at the chest, but have plenty of space at the waist. And steps are 'just walking'; ie, no pressing with the ball of the foot as in salsa, and steps are flat, with the ball touching first to give a smooth step.

    But other instructors teach a hip-to-hip connection (man's right to woman's left), which gives a much closer embrace.
     
  20. vit

    vit Clave Commander

    There is no "correct" kizomba. There is correct and incorrect way how to dance ballroom for instance, because it's competitively based and people in charge make decisions what is correct and what isn't, so they can judge people on competitions. This system reflects to social dancing as well

    In "street dances", there is only "we do it this way", while other regions do it "that way", and "our way" is usually what is claimed to be correct by instructors
     
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