Interesting Clave Changes

Discussion in 'Salsa Music' started by salsamaniac4ever, Aug 9, 2016.

  1. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    It is clear that you do not know where the word 'clave' is coming from and neither the concept, we get palabra of Puertorican musicians who "stole" the concept from Cuba and 'lectures' from guys on Salsacongresses who do not know either where they talking about...

    An African King said "if you do not know by now what it is don't mess with it"

  2. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    On that we may be in agreement (if you're referring to who I think you are).

    The rest of your post is complete nonsense.
  3. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    I saw you a very young white man from Leicester, hardly any time asked for DJigging and no publications on Cuban music or whatsoever!

    I wrote books and articles on Cuban and Puertorican music, graduated on ethnomusicology, asked for national radio broadcasting with shows on clave, mambo, rumba, son montuno, appreciated by teachers of musical high schools and a great dancer of Afro, Son, Mambo, Rumba, Timba and more..

    As the famous African King said; "Baby, if you by now do not know what it is, do not mess with it".


    PS: British ignorance does not pay off.....
  4. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    Isn't 'Son Clave' also a 'Rumba (Yambu) Clave'?
  5. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Best compliment I've received for many years. My sincere thanks!

    And? So's the guy in my profile pic, and he was responsible for some of the greatest Afro Cuban music ever made. What have you done, besides talking foolishness on a forum?

    No, but I have lived there for some time.

    If by that you mean I started DJing salsa before I had sufficient knowledge to do a decent job: guilty as charged. However that was a decade ago, and since then I've been studying and collecting music diligently.

    That's admirable, however all evidence points towards what I have been saying: clave can be used to refer to any rhythmic pattern, but if used to refer to a guide pattern then there is just rumba clave and son clave. (You can consider them to be 2 closely related claves or 2 variations on the same clave.)

    For someone so educated, you seem curiously incapable of providing evidence for your claims. Even worse, most of the links you do provide contradict what you are saying.
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
  6. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    And this is getting personal and repetitive now, so I won't be responding to any of your further posts on this topic.
  7. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    You're still conflating 2 different concepts. In salsa, mambo and Latin jazz everything is arranged, played and improvised en clave. Most of the time the clave is not even played. It's implied. But in columbia and other 6/8 rhythms? The bell pattern (of course) keeps time and provides an essential motif, but the other instruments do not have to make sure that they are en clave and are not cruzado, as they have to in son, salsa, mambo, Latin jazz and the rumba rhythms that use rumba clave (most of them).

    (N.B. 6/8 also occurs in mambo and Latin jazz. Maybe in salsa too, although I can't recall any examples.)

    As for all these different claves you keep referring to - please can you provide some external references to them. (As stated, I know some good musicians misname 6/8 bell pattern as 6/8 clave - I assume what you're referring to as columbia clave - but the majority don't.)
  8. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    If Clave means timeline or key derived from African cowbell patterns than there are many cowbell patterns but because cowbells and its patterns were forbidden in Cuba over the cen turies they started to play these patterns on sticks on other instruments and even in songs!

    That's why they are only implied and simplified! Because otherwise they were forbidden! So complex 12/8 cowbell patterns were simplified in simple clave patterns such as yambu, guaguanco and son, these white spaniards were used to hear these patterns from flamenco also using sticks! In these US drums, cowbells and so were forbidden. British protestantism!

    If you do not know the concept and its history you will never understand it. The African King was right! Faustino Nunez with Teresa Maria Linares produced a CD to identify at least 8 claves, basic rhtyhmic patterns, used in specific genres!

    But if you do not crasp this concept and its history and have no proof of something else, start to buy a CD player and take a course on Cuban music and than comeback!

    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  9. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    Furhermore salsa is not genre, it means 'sauce' and was used to describe a lot of Cuban genres (guaracha, son, son montuno, guaguanco, descarga) played in the 1970s in New York mainly by Puertoricans. So which clave do you imply if the style you talk about does not exist by itself!

    Latin Jazz is also a general term, it started as Afrocuban Jazz in New York played by Machito but also by Dizzy Gillespie playing with Cuban rumberos such as Chano Pozo, they played nearly all Afrocuban genres when playing Afrocuban Jazz, so which clave do you imply when you use a general concept but are not able to mention the specific genre they were playing?

    It is clear without a good knowledge of the different Cuban genres with their specific rhythmic patterns (claves) you can not identify what you are talking about in the case of "salsa" or "latin jazz"!

    Take a basic course Cuban genres and their clave and start with the CD of Faustino Nunez....

  10. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Told you:

    Abraham R. likes this.
  11. Marcos

    Marcos Son Montuno

    DJ Yuca,

    I had heard or read (can't remember which) Cachao state there were other claves in African music.

    I've heard what are clearly other claves in every sense of the definition, by Habib Koite.
    Listen to "Takamba" and "Fatima". Fatima, first track of the album Muso Ko, is clearly on a 2-2-3 clave. Habib Koite uses the 2-2-3 overtly played pattern as a "tool for temporal organization" for the song.
    It's been a while since I heard Takamba, from the album Baro. It also has a double 2 side, can't remember if 3-2-2 or 2-2-3.
    Also on his album Baro there's another track that has a 3-2 clave in which the 2 side's second beat is delayed.

    As an interesting note the Maria de Barros Coladeira track, "Cabindo a Cunene" is also on Clave. But it seems the Coladeria genre as a whole is not beholden to the clave.
  12. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    As the vid I posted illustrates, for a lot of Cuban musicians there are more claves than just son and rumba clave. At the same time I believe other musicians would argue that the other claves are repeating patterns not actually claves, as they are not used to the extent whereby every musician and arrangement playing must be in clave, which of course happens with son and rumba clave.
    Marcos likes this.
  13. they are using the term clave more like rhythmic key rather than rhythms that are actually called claves. Its just like when people call the bossanova clave a clave even though the creator stats it was just a rhythmic motif.
    MAMBO_CEC and DJ Yuca like this.

  14. Double clave jump back to back or just ponche hit where it shouldn't be?
  15. Marcos

    Marcos Son Montuno

    DJ Yuca,
    You can find a person to argue that the sun is black, it doesn't mean that it actually is. There's facts and there's opinions about the facts. The claim that there are other claves is not about opinions, it's about facts. And therefore if different groups of musicians have are stating different positions, one group is incorrect. I think you might also be over representing the extent towards how every musician must play. We know for example that the Guiro, Bongos, Tumbadoras, and Cowbells traditionally play certain rhythms that can be identical on both sides of the clave, such that if these were the only instruments at play you would not know which side is which. There are certain accentuations that sounds better when done taking the clave in consideration, but the brass is also not required to play exclusively off the clave, that would sound very boring. Some songs/bands place a greater emphasis on accentuation with the clave, but there have been salsa hits that were not at all accentuated on clave like Cali Pachangero.

    Abraham R.,
    You are providing a straw man argument that because someone misrepresented the clave concept with Bossa Nova, all who state the clave concept outside of the son and rumba claves are misrepresenting the concept.

    You are both welcomed to listen to Fatima and Takamba by Habib Koite. Even if you were only to listen to the sample portion of the tracks provided by iTunes or other service you will be able to discern the 2-2-3 pattern.
    arsenio123 likes this.
  16. You lost me at Cali Pachangero. lol!hahah
  17. Marcos

    Marcos Son Montuno

    Cali Pachangero was prosecuted and convicted by the clave police for being cruzado. I believe Grupo Niche was sentenced to 3 years of listening to every single track recorded by Arsenio Rodriguez, and 20 hours of community playing Tito Puente Mambo Birdland covers.
  18. i meant that you lost your credibility in my eyes when you posted cali pachangero as your key argument.

  19. Marcos

    Marcos Son Montuno

    The main key example for my main argument for different claves has been and continues to be the music of Habib Koite since I first posted.

    Cali Pachanguero was an example for a related side issue regarding the requirement for the musicians to play with the clave. Some level of accentuation with the clave is a convention that's there for good reasons. I never said anything regarding my feelings towards Cali Pachanguero (you might have assumed I liked it where I don't find anything special about it), but its popularity shows is that it's OK to break the convention. Another convention is that salsa tracks have montunos. Yet I was shocked watching the video for "Amiga Mia" by Michel "El Buenon" with no montunos. That salsa song has no montunos, I think it's garbage, but I don't know that I can classify it to a different genre of music.

    What I'm trying to show is the most extreme departure from conventions to illustrate that they are not always adhered to completely. We can imagine there are different levels at which these can be adhered to, say from 0 to 10 where 10 fully adheres to all the time and 0 not at all. I'm not a musician so my ability for analysis is limited, but I highly doubt most salsa tracks run a 10 on clave accentuation adherence.

    And again, this is a side issue. My main illustration is still Habib Koite.
  20. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero


    I'm not a musician myself however I know the basics, and I can assure you that one of the most fundamental basics of playing Latin music on all instruments, excluding the maracas but certainly including all those mentioned above, plus vocals and arrangements, is to play in clave. Therefore your above comments are erroneous.

    Re. Cali Pachenguero: that is famous as an example of a tune that crosses clave, and that fact certainly didn't stop it becoming a worldwide smash. This thread contains other examples of tunes that don't strictly adhere to being in clave. Note that many, like Cali Pachanguero, are from S America, where the clave concept was less developed (now I think the clave is equally strong over there as it is in NY and PR).

    However they stand out because they are exceptions to the rule - strong adherence to the clave is a defining characteristic of the vast majority of Afro Cuban music, particularly that made in NY and PR.
    MAMBO_CEC and Abraham R. like this.

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