Interesting Clave Changes

Discussion in 'Salsa Music' started by salsamaniac4ever, Aug 9, 2016.

  1. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    I know it takes time to accept a different view and a lot of different information, you just found out that is not Puerto Rico, Cuba but Africa. I listened the examples posted, it starts as a slow Son and than they speed up the gear sometimes you hear guaracha and sometimes guaguanco, in combination with Son!

    Welcome in Africa..

    Saludos,
    Arsenio123
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
    #81
  2. Lol now I see. You are just trolling me and I let u. Lol good one dude. I'll just stop replying now. Lol OMG I can't believe I let u troll me.
     
    MAMBO_CEC likes this.
  3. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    It is could to understand that Cuban music has a lot of claves which can be found in one song. Faustino Nunez produced a basic CD with Claves Cubanas:
    http://826.unknownsecret.info/mp3/Faustino+Nuñez/Claves+para+entender+la+Música+Cubana/

    I count 8 different Claves, if they put guajira together with son you get 2 Claves, La Clave del Punto Campesino and La Clave del Son. Of course more combination with 8 different Claves are possible.

    This CD is very useful.

    Saludos,
    Arsenio123
     
  4. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    There is only 1 clave, with 2 variations. (Or 2 claves, both of which are very similar to each other.) Son and rumba clave. Anything else is something else.
     
  5. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    You should read the following link on clave theory:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clave_(rhythm)

    Clave is derived from African cowbell patterns which were simplified Cuba, because the African cowbell was forbidden, so they used sticks or pallitos there were and are many cowbell patterns!

    I am afraid you are wrong.

    Saludos,
    Arsenio123
     
  6. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    If by clave you mean a rhythm then yes, there is more than 1 clave. In fact, if clave were another word for rhythm then there would be an infinite number of claves.

    However that is not generally how the term is used, particularly in the context of Afro Cuban music. It's not just a rhythm that can be played on sticks or even a rhythm that is played on sticks. From the Wikipedia page you linked to above: In ethnomusicology, clave is also known as a key pattern,[2][3] guide pattern,[4] phrasing referent,[5] timeline,[6] or asymmetrical timeline.[7]

    I can't see anything in the Wikipedia page you have linked to that contradicts what I'm saying or supports your ideas.
     
  7. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    Everything contradicts your remarks. The article shows that there are more keys or claves. And when there are a lot of African cowbell patterns called timelines there are a lot of claves! In the article a lot of claves in Africa, Cuba, Brasil and so on are mentioned. Son and guaguanco are just 2 and Son is derived from yambu as the article shows you are not even mentioning the Yambu!

    I advise you start listening to the CD of Faustino Nunez before starting to comment. Than you learn to recognize the different claves, what you can not hear you can not talk about!

    Saludos,
    Arsenio123
     
  8. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Nothing contradicts my remarks, and I see no point in repeating myself or paraphrasing when I've already explained myself very clearly. Even the link you have provided shows you are mistaken.

    I haven't listened to the CD above so I can't comment on it. I will repeat though: if you want to use the term clave to mean a rhythm (or rhythmic pattern) then yes, there are an infinite number of rhythms in the world.
     
  9. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    Clave is always a rhythm, it is a basic rhythm called a timeline or key. There are many basic Cuban or Afrocuban rhythms that is what makes the song different! If you do not know them, did not hear them, you do not recognize them!

    Because cowbells were forbidden, they started to play basic cowbell patterns on sticks called claves! If you do not understand these basic rhythms you can not understand the basics of what is called "Salsa"!

    Start listening to different claves to get an understanding of this music!

    Saludos,
    Arsenio123
     
  10. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    In the words of Charlie Palmieri: 'There’s only one clave!' He's not the only pro salsa musician I've heard express such sentiments. Maybe you should show us some salsa tunes with a clave that is not son clave (or rumba clave, which is the other variation).
     
  11. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    Charlie is dead! I am sure he did not say this he knew the spectrum of Cuban music very well!

    I am afraid you do not know anything of clave! There are at least 8 different Claves (see Faustino Nunez).

    Saludos,
    Arsenio123.

    Ps; for a fruitful discussion it is not to make some statement without any proof or any explanation!. Even a child can do this!
     
  12. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Hmmm, who should I believe? Charlie Palmieri and every other pro mambo and salsa musician, plus my own ears - or some guy on the internet.
     
  13. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno



    The clave rhythmic pattern is used as a tool for temporal organization in Afro-Cuban music, such as abakúa, rumba, conga de comparsa, son, son montuno, mambo, salsa, Latin jazz, songo and timba. The five-stroke clave pattern represents the structural core of many Afro-Cuban rhythms.
    The clave pattern originated in sub-Saharan African music traditions, where it serves essentially the same function as it does in Cuba. In Ethnomusicology, clave is also known as a key pattern, guide pattern, phrasing referent, timeline, or asymmetrical timeline. The clave pattern is also found in the African diaspora musics of Haitian vodou drumming, Afro-Brazilian music and Afro-Uruguayan music (Candombe). The clave pattern is used in North American popular music as a rhythmic motif or ostinato, or simply a form of rhythmic decoration.

    This video is targeted to blind users!
     
  14. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Perhaps you can explain exactly where in that video, or anywhere else for that matter, it states that there are 'more than 8 claves'. There's 1 clave! With 2 variations: son clave and rumba clave.
     
  15. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    And I said I wasn't going to repeat myself. Anyway don't take my word for it - try asking someone.
     
  16. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    If you would listen and look at the CD of Faustino Nunez you would have 8 claves.

    La Clave Del Son
    La Clave Del Guaguancó
    La Clave De La Columbia
    La Clave Del Danzón
    La Clave En El Bembé
    La Clave En El Afro
    La Clave Del Punto Campesino
    La Clave Del Dengue Y La Del Dan Den

    Faustino Nunez is professor of music at the university of Cordoba and worked with Cuban professors of music at the Fernando Ortiz institute in Havana, i.e. professor Maria Teresa Linares.
    http://www.fundacionfernandoortiz.org/

    You are not only ignorant but also....

    Saludos,
    Aesenio123.
     
  17. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    There is no info about that CD anywhere apart from on that site, which is only open to members and to which I don't want to sign up. In all the history of this music, there's only been 1 musician who's realised about all these claves out there?

    Why don't you read the Wikipedia page you posted earlier?
     
  18. nowhiteshoes

    nowhiteshoes Pattern Police

  19. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Maybe that's what he meant. Or maybe not - unless you happened to have asked him on the topic, that's conjecture. (Certainly, it would be incorrect to regard 2-3 and 3-2 as different claves.) And yes, rumba clave is rare in salsa (particularly if we exclude timba from the definition of salsa). Are there other claves in salsa? No. Because they don't exist (unless you define clave as simply any rhythmic pattern, in which case yes there are plenty of other rhythmic patterns in salsa).

    I have repeatedly said that son clave and rumba clave can be considered as 1 clave with 2 variations or as 2 different (but very closely related) claves. Either interpretation has its merits. Simply to state that 1 of these interpretations is true and the other is false doesn't add much to the debate, although as I have said, your opinion that they are different claves is valid. (But we must remember that they are almost identical, hence my comments that they could also be considered as variations on the same clave. Though I will happily concede that I may be wrong in considering the 2 to be variations on 1 clave rather than different claves.)

    Yes but as I keep saying, clave is far more than a rhythmic pattern. In Afro Cuban music clave is generally used to refer not just to the pattern of son clave or rumba clave, but the fact that (literally) all instruments use the clave as a matrix throughout each song. For 1 player to simply repeat a rhythmic pattern (or motif) is something of far less significance, and should not be referred to as a clave.

    For example above you refer to columbia clave. I take it you are referring to 6/8 bell pattern? I know some people do refer to it as 6/8 clave, however that is a misnomer. It's not a clave, and not just because it's generally played on bell not clave, but mainly because it's just a repeating figure. Son clave and rumba clave are far more than repeating figures - this is my principal point.
     
    terence likes this.
  20. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    As stated above, it is true that some musicians do use clave to refer to any rhythmic pattern. My point is that this is a misnomer. E.g. from the Wikipedia clave page:

    The clave is a rhythmic pattern used as a tool for temporal organization in Afro-Cuban music. It is present in a variety of genres such as Abakuá music, rumba, conga, son, mambo, salsa, songo, timba and Afro-Cuban jazz. The five-stroke clave pattern represents the structural core of many Afro-Cuban rhythms.[1]

    In ethnomusicology, clave is also known as a key pattern,[2][3] guide pattern,[4] phrasing referent,[5] timeline,[6] or asymmetrical timeline.[7]

    The seven-stroke standard bell pattern contains the strokes of both clave patterns. Some North American musicians call this pattern clave.[39][40]

    The so-called "bossa nova clave" (or "Brazilian clave") has a similar rhythm to that of the son clave, but the second note on the two-side is delayed by one pulse (subdivision). The rhythm is typically played as a snare rim pattern in bossa nova music. The pattern is shown below in 2/4, as it is written in Brazil. In North American charts it is more likely to be written in cut-time.

    According to drummer Bobby Sanabria the Brazilian composer Antonio Carlos Jobim, who developed the pattern, considers it to be merely a rhythmic motif and not a clave (guide pattern).


    To repeat for the final time: if you want to refer to all rhythmic patterns as claves then go ahead. But unless such rhythms are used as 'a tool for temporal organisation' aka guide pattern aka timeline etc etc - which outside of son and rumba clave they blatantly aren't - imo you are using the term incorrectly.
     
    Abraham R. likes this.

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