Interesting Clave Changes

Discussion in 'Salsa Music' started by salsamaniac4ever, Aug 9, 2016.

  1. salsamaniac4ever

    salsamaniac4ever Son Montuno

    Hi all,

    Today in the car I listened to this song and noticed that the clave repeated the 2-side 2 times which I find kinda interesting. Listen closely to 1:36 and what happens to the clave :)



    Maybe we can use this thread to post more examples like this one
     
    #1
  2. salsamaniac4ever

    salsamaniac4ever Son Montuno

    Here is another one. Listen to 1:01

     
  3. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    The clave does not repeat the 2 side twice at any point. Listen even more closely and you will find: at approx. 0.40 the song changes from 2-3 to 3-2. Then at 1.26 it returns to 2-3. But the clave itself never changes - it's the song that changes.

    There are songs in which the clave does actually change i.e. one side of the clave is repeated - but they are VERY rare in mambo and salsa. (Apparently they are more common in timba.)
     
  4. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    There is NO clave change at 1.01.

    There are various threads discussing clave changes which I suggest you study. It's great that you listen to good tunes, so I recommend your next step be to understand what's happening with the clave.
     
  5. salsamaniac4ever

    salsamaniac4ever Son Montuno

    Maybe I used the wrong terms. But still you have the following happening with the clave:

    2-3-2-3-2-2-3-2-3...... at 1.01 the 2 side of the clave repeats. It's clearly audible. As far as I know that is not common practice.
     
  6. salsamaniac4ever

    salsamaniac4ever Son Montuno

    same here. the clave sticks are clearly audible and you can hear how the 2 side repeats 2 times in a row at 1.36
     
  7. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    It's not common practice - as I said it's VERY rare in salsa and mambo. And it does not happen in that tune!
     
  8. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Oh no you can't.
     
  9. salsamaniac4ever

    salsamaniac4ever Son Montuno

    So you're really not hearing the clearly audible clave sticks in both tunes and how they repeat the 2nd side of the clave? I send the song to a few friends of mine after your answer without telling them what happens in the tune. They came to the same result as I did.
     
  10. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    That says more about the state of the salsa scene than the songs in question, however I suggest we let other forum members settle the matter (rather than continue to repeat our opposing opinions).
     
  11. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    I had the same problem ...
     
  12. DJSambroso

    DJSambroso Changui

    I am sorry DJ Yuca, in the song by Wayne Gorbea you can hear the clave very clearly. I listened to the part around 1:36 several times. The break comes at the 2-side of the clave. Usually, you are right about that, the clave doesnt stop and the song continues with 3-2 clave after the break. But here you can hear it 100% continuing 2-3 due to playing the 2-side of the clave 2 times.

    It may not happen too often. But there a more songs out there that do exactly that than you might think.

    From a musician/composer/arranger point of view the reason behind this: You have to follow the melody and if you want to end a phrase of the melody with a break and it is happening on the first side of the 2-3 clave, you have three options:
    1) Continue with 3-2 clave
    2) Let the clave finish the 3-side and use the time to do some kind of anacrusis for the next phrase which will be in 2-3
    3) Repeating the 2-side of the clave

    I grew up with music and studied a lot of classical music as well. My experience is: yes, there are "rules" in music. But that doesnt prevent musicians/composers from deviating. In fact all the great composers in classical music knew when to break those rules. With latin music its the same I think.
     
    Smejmoon and Dissonant Harmony like this.
  13. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    It was just a break, and then everything was "reset".
     
    DJSambroso likes this.
  14. DJSambroso

    DJSambroso Changui

    Exactly! Thanks for bringing that up. There are also different types of breaks. There are breaks, which in fact are a "reset" in the song and then there are breaks which do not stop the song.

    In my opinion breaks are some kind of punctuation marks.
    A break, which doesnt stop the music, could be a comma and a break, which "resets" the song, could be a full stop/period or exclamtion mark/point.
     
    Dissonant Harmony likes this.
  15. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    Like the ones in Indestructible:
     
  16. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Actually you're right (and contrary to what I also stated, there is no clave change at 0.40).

    However I think the 1st section of this tune is seriously crossed, because the other parts of the tune (which I was focusing on) are perfectly 3-2, then at 1.36 change to 2-3 - but the clave player plays 2-3 all the way through (with the 2 side repeated when the clave changes).

    Why the hell W Gorbea chose - or permitted - that I have no idea, but it spoils a great tune imo. Listen to the bass in particular: it really emphasises the 3 side of the clave - whilst the clave player plays the 2 side!

    Btw there is a good name for when one side of the clave repeats, but I have forgotten it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
  17. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    I doubt there's more than a dozen in the entire history of NY and PR mambo and salsa.

    (In the early days of S American salsa they may have been common, as they were a bit too far from the source to always know exactly what they were doing. And apparently it's considered acceptable in timba. It may have been more common in earlier Cuban music too, i.e. music recorded in Cuba.)
     
  18. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    I disagree with your analogy for the reason I just wrote - repeating the same side of the clave is so rare as to be almost unknown (at least in NY and PR mambo and salsa).
     
  19. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Also I am sticking with my earlier comment re. the Eddie Maldonado - the clave doesn't change.
     
  20. salsamaniac4ever

    salsamaniac4ever Son Montuno

    I'm glad we actually agree :). I think it was called "clave licence"

    http://www.timba.com/artist_pages/clave-debate-3
     

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