HELP ME PLEASE!

Discussion in 'Salsa Music' started by costas, Jan 26, 2017.

  1. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Whoops! Should read: the fondness for faster tunes is more reflective of a scene in its infancy.
     
    #21
    Dissonant Harmony likes this.
  2. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    Son Montuno:

    A sub-genre of Son Cubano; It's a Son, with...Montuno. (Those rhytmical patterns you woud often hear the piano doing in Salsa songs).

    *A huge portion of the "Salsa" Songs you'd hear in linear party - are actually Son Montuno. (If your venue isn't Mambo-centric, then I'd even dare say most of the songs you'd hear are Son Montunos: Including the 'Romantica', and the "Salsa Dura').

    Example:


    (Here the guitar does the Montuno).

    ---

    Charanga:

    Charanga isn't uncessarilly a name of a genre; Charanga is a type of ensemble:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salsa_music#Instrumentation
    (Read the parts acout 'Son Conjunto' and 'String Charanga').

    Charanga ensembles would usually play Danzon, Cha Cha Cha, and Son.
    When a Charanga Ensemble plays son, it ends up being what we call "Charanga" (songs).

    Examples:





    ---

    Guajira:

    Gaujira songs are usually slow. Many times the lyrics would be somewhat lament.

    Many people confuse Guajira with Cha Cha Cha.
    Guajira is close to Son, and has a an "implied Clave" to its groove.

    The cowbell will mark the: 1, 3, 5, 7...

    In addition, Guajira has that signature piano/guitar pattern (Other than the usual Montuno) - which will usually instantly tell you it's a Guajira.

    It's been said on the Forums that Guajira has a "1, 2, 3&4" accent to it.
    I can understand why, and it makes sense to me (But still, I personally think many times 2, 3, 4&5 makes sesnse as well!)

    Examples:


    https://youtu.be/1M-CmkjTolQ
    https://youtu.be/Kqm4B8NZxZQ

    ---

    Cha Cha Cha

    If Guajira is the 'Gloomy' and 'morsoe' brother of Son,
    then Cha Cha Cha is the joyful and cheerul and perhaps mischiveous relative of...Danzon!

    First: Cha Cha Cha will usually be in Charanga Format.
    Second: Cha Cha Cha doesn't have "invisible traces" of Clave.

    Third: The cowbell will stress all the beats! As if trying to exctie everyone!

    Cha Cha Cha's "groove" will usually go: "8&1! 2. 3...4&5! 6. 7..."

    Examples:

    https://youtu.be/pQc0HfN5ITI
    https://youtu.be/zmBZo2mHFFw

    ---

    Salsa Dura:

    -In Jazz, that description ("Hard", "Core", "Hard Core", "Acid Core") would usually imply that the genre stays strict to "its rules".

    'Salsa Dura' is not a genre, but rather a way to say that the song is obviously "orthodox".

    Those songs will usually be "dry" in sound, and the instruments will usually do very "regular" patterns.

    Eventually, 'Salsa Dura' became a general name to some types of Salsa songs that rised in the 70s, oftens associated with Linear-Salsa venues. Defining what 'Salsa Dura' can be quite the topic. (And actually - there is a considerably long one about that here, in the forums!)

    I'd stay away from this term, because 'Salsa Dura' is not a genre, it doesn't "say" alot, and different people may think of different things when you use it.

    I'd say most "Salsa Dura" songs are actually Son Montunos, or really close to that.

    Example:

    Tony Guzmán y su Poder Latino - Camino Jorobado:
    https://app.box.com/s/fshstjozhuphh200oej7ajzxts0e8ay9

    (I think it's an almost-perfect 'Practice-Song', or at least a song to use when teaching students about the different instruments in "Salsa").

    ---

    Guaguanco:

    One of the styles of Rumba.
    -Also, there are a lot of songs which are crossovers between Son and Guaguanco, BUT:

    When NYians say "Guaguanco" they actually mean to something else, which I, personally, am somewhat ignorant about.

    There is that thread, though:
    http://www.salsaforums.com/threads/what-do-you-mean-by-guaguanco.28986/

    Here they talk about Son Montuno and Guaguanco, and compare the two.
    (But I kinda skimmed through it).

    ---

    Under the "Salsa" spectrum, there are also: Changüí, Guaracha, Boogaloo, Mambo ("Cuban"), and again Mambo (This time American-Jazz oriented)...But I don't really know how to explain them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
    mlemonl likes this.
  3. costas

    costas Changui

    dissonant harmony what can i say! you saved me!:) thanks a lot
     
    Dissonant Harmony likes this.
  4. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    1st Para.. In Guajira's, there is frequently a double syncop. on 1.2. 3and4 followed by 2,3, 4and1 ..therein lies the confusion..

    2nd Para.. Guaracha ( the dance ) is a very fast form of Danzon with what is named a "slurred" Box .

    Fair to say that, pretty much all the styles of dance music of the 40/50s, were used for dancing "mambo",

    I believe Mambo, has enough visual clips and descriptions to satisfy most .
     
    Dissonant Harmony likes this.
  5. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    :D

    Guajira part: That's rather interesting! I'd later listen to a few song and try to hear it.

    "double syncop. on 1.2. 3and4 followed by 2,3, 4and1"

    Does it mean one instrument goes: "1.2. 3and4", and another goes: "2.3 4and1" - or is it the same instrumet, doing: "1.2. 3and4and1"?

    Guaracha part - good to know. I was on the verge of asking
    What would dbe the dance of Guajira then?

    Some sort of a Son, danced Tiempo, with "Cha-Cha-Cha steps" on the 3and4?
     
  6. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    Dissonant Harmony,

    I think you did a great job. Son Montuno is essential. Charanga's took the montuno/mambo part to create the chachacha and the mambo i.e. Orestes and Cachao Lopez. Indeed a lot of salsa dura is Son Montunos/Mambos with more aggressive mambo horn sections (Palmieri La Perfecta with Barry Rogers). In the improvisational part of i.e. a fast guaracha played by Palmieri and La Perfecta called descarga, you can find guaguanco played by the congueros and on the woodblock.
     
  7. Marcos

    Marcos Son Montuno

    Costas,

    Straight up salsa crowds generally stick to regional sounds of the origin of the group. Whether this be Colombian, Cuban, or Puertorican. Note that NYC scene is dominated by Puertoricans and descendants of Puertoricans, and while they have similar sounds the NYC bands tend to be more aggressive and more likely to include influences from their non-Puertorican band members.

    Finally there's the non-Latino crowds, which generally tend to be the most flexible because they don't have a deep cultural attachment, but can also become entrenched into a regional sound depending on where the dance instructors and traveling bands come from. Here in Japan I've been to venues where they play a significant amount of English lyric songs, others where they play a ton of Cuban Timba, and others where they play a lot of NYC bands.

    So it's incumbent on you to know the make up of your crowd so you don't bore the Cubans with a Gran Combo/Tito Rojas/Mulenze rotation, or piss off the NYC salsa dura group with a Los Van Van/Tiempo Libre/Calle Real rotation. On the other hand if you are playing for Puertoricans but you came in advertised as a Cuban style DJ you will please nobody if you don't play a good dose of Cuban music, because the Puertorican Cuban music lovers will be going to you for that sound.

    Finally, you should always try to support your local struggling artists and play their music if they have something good. The scene is always better when there's live bands. I've seen the sad situation of an artist showing up to advertise, and the DJ doesn't play any of their tracks.
     
  8. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    How depressing. (But I'm glad there are other options!)
     
  9. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    Cubans had tapes and good radiocontacts and know/knew what happened in New York, they liked Oscar d'leon and Ruban Blades.

    When Fania came to Cuba in 1970s the Cubans left the Karl Marx Stadium in Havana, for them is was a very old hat, Cuban music from the 1940s and the 1950s played mainly by Puertoricans who are still recycling these old Cuban models!

    We are happy something happened in Cuba since the 1960s, Irakere, Elio Reve, Los Van Van and many more!

    Saludos,
    Arsenio123
     
    Marcos likes this.
  10. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    There are various accounts of Fania artists and songs being very popular in Cuba in the 70s.
     
  11. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Let's face it, 70s Fania has had a hell of a lot more longevity than 99% of 70s Cuban music, the vast majority of which has sunk into oblivion.
     
  12. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    As always bad informed, descarga, guaracha, son montuno and mambo are all Cuban models from the 1940s and 1950s which Cuban musicians brought to New York collaborating with Puertoricans.

    The bast source is the article of prof. Peter Manuel of Cuny university. Puerto Rican Music and Cultural Identity: Creative Appropriation of Cuban Sources from Danza to Salsa. It is free on the internet as pdf document.

    Cubans kept playing the old models and developed new ones: songo, Mozambique, bata-son, batarumba and much more and is now part of modern Cuban musical forms as Timba.

    After reading and study the article of Peter Manuel you will understand that Puertoricans copied cuban music and dance for a very long time, why? Nobody wants their plena and bomba!

    As I said before take a course on Cuban music, mambo and salsa included and than come back!

    Saludos,
    Arsenio123
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
  13. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Which doesn't contradict either of my posts in any way, and is common knowledge. (Although I believe most/all of those forms are from before the 40s, so your date is incorrect.)

    You seem to have serious problems with retaining basic information and formulating a simple argument. If you insist on commenting then actually read my posts above, and state specifically what you disagree with and why.
     
  14. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    Start reading the article of prof. Peter Manuel, before posting the "false facts".
    First studying the facts of Cuban music and than start writing not the other way round! Your worldview on this music is completely wrong that is a serious problem...

    Saludos,
    Arsenio123
     
  15. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

     
  16. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    I am not going to repeat myself, especially the nonsense put forward on Fania all stars and their so called superiority regarding Cuban music from the 1970s, pure nonsense, many people did not hear Cuban music from the 1970s through the US blockade, this enabled Puertoricans to sell old Cuban music in the US as "salsa", the American blockade of Cuba made Americans unware of Cuban music....Cuban musicians found out that their old songs were copied/stolen and had difficulties to execute lawsuits to claim their legal rigths...

    It is more the Fania All Crooks...

    Saludos,
    Arsenio123
     
  17. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    If only that were true.
    No one on here (or elsewhere) has claimed the FAS to have had some sort of 'superiority'. However they certainly did some killer tracks. That's pretty obvious - a shame it needs stating.

    That blatantly doesn't stand up for a number of obvious reasons.

    Read about any genre of music from this era and you will find, again and again, most artists got ripped off. It was the same for the salseros - you think they got any royalties either? Tite Curet Alonso wrote 100s (or more) salsa tunes, many of which were massive hits (million sellers) - and he had to work as a postman! But he wasn't Cuban, so that doesn't fit your narrative.

    History is supposed to be about finding out what happened. To you it's just a means of trying to prove something you've already decided.
     
  18. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    p.s. You're so clueless that I'm going to try not to respond to anymore of your nonsense. A number of other posters are doing the same.
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2017
  19. Marcos

    Marcos Son Montuno

    I read in an interview that Jerry Masucci was who decided to play the old Cuban songs instead of Fania All Stars repertoire, against the wishes of the musicians.
     
  20. Marcos

    Marcos Son Montuno

    Yes, it was terrible. I've had it happen twice, in two different cities. I should complain to the DJs more.
     
    DJ Yuca likes this.

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