Grammar

Discussion in 'Salser@s Anonymous' started by terence, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. DJ Ara

    DJ Ara Clave Commander

    I am sorry, but that was just an exerpt of an interview with Charlotte Iserbyt former Senior Policy Advisor in the Office of Educational Research and Improvement (OERI), U.S. Department of Education, during the first Reagan Administration,. I thought a short clip would be more palatable for people new to this subject matter. Anyway, she mainly covers the attack on the values of the children that on one level constitutes dumbind down. As for the attack on people's language skills and their ability to communicate, then you don't need much testimony as you can see this by watching the language "skills" of young people in your neighborhood... ;)

    Anyway, if you are interested, then this is a longer interview with this lady:
     
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  2. azana

    azana Super Moderator Staff Member

    Correct. The era witnessed not simply issues with the education system and punitive approaches to misbehavior, but the way languages were taught. The focus on CLT (Communicative Langauge Teaching), which is unfortunately still popular in places such as Japan, and rote learning of simplistic grammar were counterproductive. However, a further key issue was the lack of appreciation of different varieties of English, and the proliferation of the myth of the native speaker. What right did an Australian, or a Briton have to criticise Indian dialects of English, or Chinese English? They boast far more speakers. There is no 'correct' version - you adapt to the societies you're in. I basically inform my students (I teach English Language, a subject based on linguistics, Halliday's functional grammar, and English history, evolution and language policy) that I completely validate their Sri Lankan (I have Tamil and Sinhala speakers), Punjabi, Arabic and other forms of English, but what they need to be careful of is the external final year assessors. They will often not have studied language policy and will read non-Standard Australian English (which I don't particularly think is the prettiest variety of English :)) as incorrect, so be prepared.

    The way to learn grammar is to study content at the same time, i.e. teach it through a history or a science lesson. The grammar sinks in when the content is meaningful, rather than correcting given mistakes in ten discontented and irrelevant sentences, as most grammar books teach it. As with learning a foreign language - do all of your subjects in this language (reinforcing the content later in your own) rather than separate classes memorising tenses or fruit and vegetable vocabulary. It needs to be meaningful.

    Basically, I differentiate between incorrect spelling and grammar (e.g. "grammer"; unnecessary possessive apostrophes e.g. "1980's" :p) and speaking in a different variety of English for which different rules apply. However, yes, I am disappointed with the general poor level of English demonstrated by the media. Again, grammatical and standard English errors are completely different to the content chosen to present and how that content is approached, which constitutes dumbing down of the populace. The grammar represents old-fashioned teaching, laziness, or perhaps having attended a private school hehehe :D.
     
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  3. hyh

    hyh Rhythm Deputy

    No thanks. My wasted 9 min was enough to let me that the lady is a nutjob, specifically of delusional conspiracy-theory type.

    Thanks for this.

    My point is that THERE IS NO DELIBERATE EFFORT TO DISCARD A PROVEN SUPERIOR EDUCATION METHOD USED IN THE PAST IN FAVOR OF INSISTING ON USING A LESS EFFECTIVE INFERIOR EDUCATION METHOD by most nations (at least not the crazy ones) in the world. That would be a deliberate dumbing down of education and a surefire way to bring the country down the toilet real fast. You're badly misinformed if not delusional if you think that education system in the past (e.g. 50's Britain or 70's or whenever) was perfect and that we made it deliberately worse to keep the masses down in the present day.

    I won't even bother to ask the explanation for the original offending comment, "Unfortunately the world of mainstream medicine and general scientific research is not much better," because I can see that it won't be worth arguing over.
     
  4. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    Im not speaking to dialects in the vernacular, but to those who are supposed to set standards, for the language they use in public news and information formats .
    Another common usage from the public arena " I should have WENT " .
    I guess ya shudda:rolleyes:
     
  5. azana

    azana Super Moderator Staff Member

    "Less people", grrrr! Mistaking count and non-count nouns is far too common.

    Goodness, my own post was littered with errors. How embarrassment. I guess you realised I meant 'disconnected' sentences :) .
     
  6. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    Sure did; "shooting from the hip", has given cause to many errors by me, over time .
    Backtracking.. the apostrophe thing, Theres move afoot in the UK ,to ban them altogether; greengrocers here, are notorious for, their mis-use .
    One of my fave. tomes of recent past was, the " Eats Green leaves and shoots" .
    And, theres a columnist in the Sunday Times that, writes the best review on Restaurants/ food ; beautiful written english and, very funny.. AA Gill.. I think its posted on line .
     
  7. Salsa Bear

    Salsa Bear Sabor Ambassador

    Which is exactly where the U.S. is right now...
     
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  8. DJ Ara

    DJ Ara Clave Commander

    Some people will insist in living in denial of what is an obvious fact. They will also refuse to hear evidence, because of their state of denial and in itself kind of proves the point I am making about the constant dumbing down of the masses, which you, yourself know about.


    NOTES:

    I)In this case we are talking about evidence presented to them by a former Senior Policy Advisor in the Office of Educational Research and Improvement (OERI), U.S. Department of Education, no less, yet, the "I am too smart to be duped and I would have known about such a thing, if it were true attitude continues, just as it does by the people who have been duped by their so called "democratic" elections and their fairy tale world relgions.....LOL!

    II) There coraborative evidence in whatI say in the form of an interview made with one Norman Dodd (June 29, 1899 – January 1987) chief investigator in 1953 for U.S. Congressman B. Carroll Reece Special Committee on Tax Exempt Foundations (known simply as the Reece Committee). In the following interiew made shortly before his death, Dodd talks about his findings of how things, including education is being manipulated by Tax Exempt Foundations (charities) that were set up by US establishment families:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUYCBfmIcHM

    Some people may watch this, most won't because they will be too busy watching their favorite ball games on TV or even focusing in an unusual fanatical manner (anything to escape the real world) in order to learn the latest salsa moves, however the reality of a constantly dumbed down society which is part of a long term social engineering will sooner or later bite them in the butt, So, better be well informed, I say. ;)
     
  9. hyh

    hyh Rhythm Deputy

    No doubt everything is crystal clear and obvious to you. I rather not waste my time trying to convince or educate people who is absolutely convinced that they know the truth (e.g. Jehovah's Witness duos). I bet there are some Jehova's Witness missionaries who think that people don't listen to them and convert because they are too busy watching their favorite ball games on TV or even focusing in an unusual fanatical manner (anything to escape the real world) in order to learn the latest salsa moves. Maybe I should take it as a silver lining that it takes more than simple delusion to turn people into Tamerlans and Dzhokhars.

    (It would be a total waste to try to discuss or speculate why Reagan got the batshit crazy Ms Iserbyt involved in government education program. At this rate, president Bush could have appointed Ann Coulter as a policy advisor to try to reform the media for more fair and balanced reporting, and then some leftwing loony using Coulter's statements would argue that there's a deliberate dumbing down of media in 2040.)

    I'm done with this conspiracy topic BTW.
     
  10. azana

    azana Super Moderator Staff Member

    That was finally overruled. Common sense prevailed :).
     
  11. DJ Ara

    DJ Ara Clave Commander

    Don't flatter yourself, you were never in the discussion to start with! :p

    Suffice to say, that one of the few things that parents can do to give a better life to their children is making sure that they get the best education they can. So the topic of education is nothing to be laughed at and should be taken seriously.

    Incidentally, many people when informed about the prevalent corruption and medicority in education, medicine, etc. will often say,"if things were that bad, then someone would blow the whistle". The irony is that many do come out and blow the whistle, but this messes with the fragile realities of many people including those very people who keep asking for "evidence", which in turn results in people, including the "evidence" seekers turning around and calling the whistle blowers, batcrazy conspiracy nuts.....LOL!

    Humans are interesting animals, that is for sure! :)
     
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  12. sunsoul

    sunsoul Shine Officer

    AA Gill is a fine writer. Even though I would never go to the places that he reviews, his excogitations are still nice to read..
     
  13. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    neither would I.. cant afford them !!
     
  14. azana

    azana Super Moderator Staff Member

    All right people...I am having to correct far too many thread titles these days (including this one :D) due to superfluous apostrophes, lack of singular / plural agreement and so forth. I mean really, we have enough to do :p . This is getting out of control... :p
     
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  15. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    Here's one ,with which you may like to begin....

    "Dancing Videos ".. I have plenty of vids about dance, and not ONE of them will dance for me !

    But here is my latest bug bear.. people who insist on placing the letter "h" where it does not belong.. ex.. pretty much any word ( of late ) that has a construction with ST, as in Shtrait. Even some newscasters have acquired this speech impediment .

    And, you would have a fit if you could hear how some of the broadcasters on TV in the UK, mutilate proper nouns, particularly towns and cities in foreign countries.

    I do remember the day when, the BBC, for all of its other short comings , had their presenters coached ( I'm sure ) with names that were out of the ordinary to the English "tongue ". .
    We still do have, however, CHIKago :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2015
  16. calichris10

    calichris10 Sabor Ambassador

    I love a British accent. Nothing, not even bad grammar, sounds bad. :)
     
  17. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao


    You obviously, have never heard a Birmingham dialect :eek: ( and I don't mean Alabama )...
     
  18. calichris10

    calichris10 Sabor Ambassador

    I have ;) lol...i guess anything is better than an American accent:p
     
  19. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao


    Absolutely not !!; can't stand English commentators in sports or newscast. I only listen to Fox news ( and Amer. football./ Baseball.) I actually turn the sound off it's a major soccer game in the UK. And, the presenters are even worse ( to my ears ) .
     
  20. calichris10

    calichris10 Sabor Ambassador

    Interesting!
     

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