Differences between Cuban Salsa and Casino on the dance floor

Discussion in 'Just Dance' started by TomSchueler, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    Don't worry about me, I don't attend BR latin classes anymore for a few years, only BR standard ... but even if my teachers were not good, I have teaching videos of pretty much all respectable pros that filmed them (Malitowski, Slavik, Donnie, Watson, Skufca, ISTD, number of Blackpool, russian and other congresses etc - ok, many of that is actually old fashioned latin now ...) and can't find many things you were writing about explained that way ... of course, I probably only remembered things I liked and ignored things I didn't ...
     
  2. manzanadulce

    manzanadulce Sonero

    Ok, but when they are exchanging partners they are always traveling forward in the same direction. That is the point. That was also my original point. It seems there is some confusion with respect to backwards travel as in son and backwards travel as in casino (particularly in ruedas).

    Stylistic clockwise and counterclockwise travel while connected with the same partner in a rueda is a separate thing and has nothing to do with the efficiency of the rueda. When @Offbeat originally asked about backwards travel in casino I though he was referring to back break steps. Back breaks should never be done in a rueda.

    Hope this makes sense now.

    Back breaks are not the same thing as backwards travel. Backwards travel is seen in son. It is also seen within the context of ruedas de casino as in the videos provided by @Offbeat and @vit.
     
  3. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    Better never say never!
     
    Big10 likes this.
  4. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    When I was saying "you" I meant as it in general, not you personally. By the way very little times I saw something in videos or youtube that was technically giving the full picture. Its in privates that these teachers open the door and usually only once you had a serious amount of lessons with you.
     
  5. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    Yes, I know that ... but some of those go really in depth regarding technique, much more that any of privates I had, because in privates I just want to feel it dancing as leader and follower with teacher and trying with my partner and not listening the theory that usually doesn't work on me anyway. Btw, can you imagine that I'm attending classes with the guy who was US int. standard pro finalist about 10 years ago that are cheaper than salsa/kizomba/bachata and similar sh..... lessons with local wannabes (both group classes and privates are cheaper). It's really sad how people are more attracted into learning that locally sold sh... than some real dancing from someone that can actually dance and teach unlike their so called teachers ...
     
  6. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    OMG! :eek: WTF!
     
  7. Offbeat

    Offbeat ¡WEPA!

    I rarely spent any time searching videos or watching them. If I come across any accidentally, I will post them. I am curious though. Is there any principle or rationale on why there shouldn't be traveling backwards in rueda? I can't think of any. I already see Vit has posted two videos showing backwards travel.

    When I said I seen, I am talking about impromptu ruedas out on the streets or other places where two or three or four couple get up and start dancing. I haven't been to any events where rueda is a big part of dancing.

    But that doesn't mean it can't happen, does it? I only taken very few rueda classes just of fun with some other friends. I can't remember instructors saying anything about not doing backstep or backward travel.

    Is there a reason back breaks shouldn't be done in rueda?
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
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  8. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    Very true, in many cases... Moths are always attracted to a bright light..
     
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  9. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    Nicely said! The problem is that people tend to follow them and don't seem to be able to make a distinction between moths and butterflies!
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  10. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    If I look back over the years, in all the genres I taught, I would bet fewer than 10/5 % of students , EVER cared much, beyond a rudimentary summary, about anything beyond that level..
     
  11. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    Part of the people on the salsa scene certainly want to learn.
    But many times objectives are problematic.
    People don't seem to be aware enough that dance technique is there primarily to make dancing easier and more enjoyable and that some effort is needed here
    But their priorities are mostly how they look, not that much how it feels
    I think that even part of teachers and "teachers" are not aware of that. And part of them is actually selling them exactly what they want

    But on the other side ... it's how our society works overall during last decades at least ... so I suppose it can't be different
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  12. manzanadulce

    manzanadulce Sonero

    What vit posted is not what I originally thought u were referring to. Ruedas can travel clockwise or counterclockwise although while exchanging partners I've only seen them traveling clockwise. Back breaks shouldn't be done for obvious reason. When you are switching partners and having to travel distances to do so, how would stepping back help you get to where you need to go?
     
  13. Offbeat

    Offbeat ¡WEPA!

    I am getting slightly more confused :) Okay let's say in a rueda you are doing a pattern that may end up or not in switching the partners. Now in the middle of that pattern, let say one or two bars before you switch the pattern, back breaks should work?
     
  14. manzanadulce

    manzanadulce Sonero

    You should never do back breaks in casino, it's not part of the fundamental structure of the dance as it is is west coast swing or hustle. That elastic effect it creates is unnecessary in casino. So to answer your question, there is no need to ever do back breaks in casino.

    Walking "backwards" i.e. Counterclockwise is fine, although it is typically not done while exchanging partners since constant switching of clockwise to counterclockwise would just be unnecessarily complicated in a rueda with many couples involved.

    I hope u are less confused now
     
  15. Offbeat

    Offbeat ¡WEPA!

    Is that an universal understanding for casino. I am talking casino, not rueda. That is if I talk to 10 good instructors who teach and understand casino, would seven or eight of them agree that there is no need to do back breaks.

    Outside of casino, when I have danced with ladies from south america (coloumbia, venezuela, peru, etc) who aren't trained dancers but can dance to the salsa music since they grown up with it, here are some of my observations:

    1. Prefer to dance in roundness like casino than slot.
    2. Plenty of side to side back breaks (ala cumbia steps)
    3. Few turns is any. Nothing more complex than some very simple turning.
    4. Do back breaks.

    My thinking is that back breaks are very natural among anyone who dances salsa. I don't know much about casino.
     
  16. manzanadulce

    manzanadulce Sonero

    Your answer raises another point I should address. Casino does use the basic step from son, which travels side to side with a "back break" on 1 and 5 (or 2 and 6) depending if dancing a tiempo or contratiempo. Usually a casino dance, especially if danced outside a rueda starts off in a closed hold position with the son basic. Once commencing the dance, it is done much less often than the casino basic or other patterns. In ruedas it is not done with much frequency. Ruedas favor "para ti y para mi" rather than the son basic.

    The problem and the reason for so much confusion surrounding casino is that due to its nature as a folkloric dance, there are not many people trained to actually teach it. However if you managed to find 8 decent casino teachers, yes, I believe 7 or even 8 of them would say breaking back in casino does not make sense given the structure of the dance. The "break" step in the side to side son basic as I mentioned before does not count. This step is only done in closed hold and doesn't follow the same structure as the followers footwork in casino. The leaders footwork does have some hook steps but it's important to note that these hook steps, although originating in a backwards direction and pushing forward, do NOT create that "elastic band" effect created by the break steps in linear salsa.

    Below is an example of them starting with the son basic, side to side with "break steps", but look at the rest of the clip, there is no elastic break back effect as in linear salsa.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=EFZHnrgLflI
     
  17. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    Those, are NOT "footwork". They are foot "positions ". If you do not know the difference, then learn what the technical aspects represent.. ( and why they are so named ) .

    Relaying information in " dance " needs to be clear and concise.
    The lack of this type of knowledge in teaching, is what, in many cases, "leads" ( no pun ) to most of the faults that occur, in beginners lessons, which carry on to the social dance scene..
     
  18. Offbeat

    Offbeat ¡WEPA!

    Will watch video later. Thanks for your explanation. I see now that you are looking at it from more elastic band effect in the structure of the dance. In which case I would agree. With the rotational force/energy in the casino there is no need for the elastic effect one would seek in a straight line dances. I do think there is still a similar pull effect in casino or rounded dances too, but it is more rotational in nature and it doesn't need back step to create it. Are there moves in casino that would require you to take a back step? (not for elastic effect but just as a result of physical dynamics of the movement) - e.g. ending a move may naturally cause leader or follower to step back (if nothing else to gain balance).
     
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  19. Offbeat

    Offbeat ¡WEPA!

    To be fair to the poster, she isn't trying to teach anyone :) Other than pros like yourself, the rest of us can't be expected to know exact technical differences in the terminology. As long as two people can understand what the other is saying, it doesn't matter whether they call dog a cat or cat a dog :).

    Please remember that for most of us on here it is a hobby. While you have been a pro at it for twice the time many of us have been merely walking on the earth! Therefore you definitely have more wisdom. You certainly have gained the right to correct others. But you also need to understand where someone else is coming from. The way you worded it sounded like a rebuke and it was uncalled for.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
  20. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    On the contrary. The way she posts implies just that... And, it's not about how 2 people communicate it's about teaching standards , and mis information.

    My point was clear. IF "we" as Profs, do not attempt to keep standards high ( as is the case with many who do not !! ) then the de generation of the base foundation will be eradicated .
     

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