Difference between salsa and timba?

Discussion in 'Salsa Music' started by El Conguero, Jul 30, 2010.

  1. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    If you like timba and salsa then good for you - so do many other people. If you think DJs should mix the 2 - in certain events, and to a certain extent, I agree. But to suggest or imply that there is something remiss in salsa fans not liking timba (or the reverse) is a bit ridiculous imo. Musicians take influences from all sorts of areas, particularly from things that are contemporary and successful. (I remember last decade a lot of salsa bands started putting reggaeton passages in their songs.) So some salsa musicians are influenced by timba? Plenty aren't. More importantly, the golden years of salsa were in the past, before timba even existed. (Adalberto Álvarez is son moderno rather than timba btw.) Richie Ray was highly influenced by classical music - maybe all salsa fans should listen to classical music as well? Anyone who's serious about music should be aware of anything that's of a high musical standard i.e. a lot of salsa, timba and classical music, but there is no obligation to like and listen to everything.

    As for the reverse, with timba musicians being influenced by salsa - unfortunately the type of salsa that is popular in Cuba is overwhelmingly of the romántica variety, and I believe it is the likes of Marc Anthony, Victor Manuelle etc who have had an impact on timba musicians. That's inevitable, as these are the artists whose work sells, but most salsa aficionados are not interested in such artists, so the fact that they have influenced timberos is of little relevance to us.

    I think it's good for salsa fans to be aware of timba and vice versa, particularly as some from both camps will end up liking the other style if they are exposed to it. But please don't suggest or imply that it is wrong to like only 1, because the differences between the classic mambo and salsa dura sounds of the past, and the timba sound of today (and last decade) are vast. Personally timba gives me a headache. And for many timba fans, who appreciate its frenetic, aggressive style, listening to anything old is of no interest.

    Another factor is that today's dance styles are designed to work solely with one musical style i.e. I don't think slot style salsa works so well with timba music, likewise casineros always claim their style works fine with salsa, but then they always moan about and refuse to dance to mambo music, plus if they don't get to do gears they feel shortchanged. Hence there is a split in the salsa world, even in places where both scenes are small.

    Of course if people liked both styles of music they could find a way to adopt their styles of dance to suit their music tastes, so personally I wouldn't let such a factor stop me from listening to what I want, but I don't know if most people on the salsa and casino scenes are flexible regarding this.

    My point is: listen to and enjoy whatever you want, but please don't look down on those of us who don't appreciate timba. As I said, personally it gives me a headache, and I know plenty of other people who feel the same. (Likewise I suspect most timba fans would find the idea of listening to 50s mambo absurd.)
    LarsM, MAMBO_CEC and terence like this.
  2. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    The best thing for you, dyuka, to do is to start your own forum, gives you the possibility to write down your "own truths" and to annoy the ones you like.

    Leave us alone with your "opinions", ours is based on years of serious scientific studies of Cuban music! With the best literature and professors available.

  3. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    You appear to be incapable of responding to criticism, or articulating any specific or relevant criticism of others' opinions, or even making a clear point. All you do is state what you believe, without any evidence, then if anyone questions it you insult them and state more of your beliefs, that have little to do with the criticism you are supposedly responding to. Talking loud and saying nothing.

    Please don't post if you can neither explain yourself nor provide evidence for your beliefs.
    LarsM likes this.
  4. arsenio123

    arsenio123 Son Montuno

    I responded in a friendly way to the excellent and informed analyses of Timberamayor and Marcos who really understand what they are talking about, I intend to continue the conversation with both of them:)

  5. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Yeah right. As soon as someone dares to question your propaganda you'll be interrupting your 'conversation' to insult them furiously.
    LarsM likes this.
  6. Marcos

    Marcos Son Montuno

    I think that where we differ is larger. Your answer leads me to believe you are the type of person who idolizes a certain specific era of music and would be content exclusively listening to that music of that era, and any band nowadays who would play to mimic that style. You probably end up buying less music that disappoints you than I do. I just don't think that mentality is good for the future of music and new musicians going forward. I also know there are structural problems with the industry, La Excelencia should have been much bigger with a wider audience than they were, and though I don't know how to fix I will continue to do my part buying new music (I can't go to so many concerts due to availability in the small city in Japan where I live).
  7. Marcos

    Marcos Son Montuno

    On the inverse I see a huge exclusivity problem with a lot of people in the timba community. Many who are throwing it in with Calle Real, Pupy, Manolito, and Mayimbe will then get excited about BVSC. Then everything else for them doesn't exist, whether it be the progressive bands like Bioritmo or Quantic who do very original work, or respected salsa bands like El Gran Combo and Sonora Ponceña. The main thread for many of them is Cuban origin. The Cuban flag of authenticity is no guarantee of greatness, there's plenty of garbage that comes out of Cuba.

    For anybody who gets excited about Sierra Maestra or BVSC to turn around and call the Puertorican bands boring is ludicrous.
    wol, terence, DJ Yuca and 1 other person like this.
  8. Smejmoon

    Smejmoon El Sabroso de Conguero

    I wonder if you were trying to be divisive or not. :) I like a lot all bands you mentioned, except pupy. And I certainly miss groovy originality like Quantic.
  9. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    Not exactly - I idolize the mambo era it's true, but I like what came after. There are plenty of good, contemporary artists that can stay within traditional parameters without being retrograde, e.g. Los Hacheros, Calumbuco, La Máxima 79, Moncho Rivera, etc etc. I have bought their tunes and without hesitation I would be happy to pay to see them live if I had the opportunity. My mentality is not the reason so many of today's salsa bands are struggling. The real problem is that for most 'salseros', their priority is the instructors. I've seen people on this forum talking about a great line up for a salsa congress - I checked it out and there were literally no bands playing. (And the names of the DJs were pretty low down on the list of information.) Most congresses have very few live bands, and those playing are often local, no name bands - who may well deserve support, but so do those who are of a higher standard.

    Salsa promoters realised a while ago that if they don't bother to book live bands it has very little impact on their promotions and saves them a lot of money. (Indeed some salsa promoters won't even use DJs who insist on being paid.) In fact, some 'salseros' don't even like live bands, as there's a chance that they might play a tune that lasts longer than 3 1/2 minutes and/or is faster than 100BPM. Not the ideal duration and tempo for doing moves, so therefore of no value.

    Good for you. The problems in the music industry probably go back to the 70s when so many independent labels and music stores where bought up or taken out of business by multinationals, who try to run the music business in the same way they would run something like a burger franchise. The end result is limited opportunities for those who don't follow a formula. (Ironically this way of running the music business is not even financially successful in many instances.) Also we can add to the mix changes in fashion and lifestyles (people have less time to be dancing and socialising nowadays, as we are increasingly expected to devote our lives to our jobs).

    However you seem to be judging me, and others, on our tastes in music. So music from the past is my favourite? Maybe music from the past was better then. Our maybe it's all subjective. Either way I'm not going to feel bad for educating myself and appreciating the music of yesterday.
    LarsM, Marcos and terence like this.
  10. Marcos

    Marcos Son Montuno

    congresses with no live bands are sad, can you remember which ones? One of the three I've been to didn't have a band, but it was in Singapore and it might have been too costly for them to fly one in. The other two did have bands; one in Miami had a local band (I can't remember which), one in San Francisco (had Timbalive from Miami). For me my favorite venue has been Granada/Alhambra in California, precisely because I got to see so many bands there (I remember Johnny Polanco, Rumbankete, and Lucky7Mambo), and the patrons were there to dance. I remember going to another place in LA to see Ricardo Lemvo and never went back because there was a bunch of come*****s.

    Puerto Rico was the most challenging place, they had bands playing salsa everywhere, and I couldn't get anybody to dance! It was all cuadrao' as people say in Domino. I finally got directed to a good place in Guaynabo by Arthur Murray dance instructors, which unfortunately had closed last time I went back. As a dancer I've found it challenging to try to get good dancing at most concerts by famous bands, a lot of girls just want to see the band/singer and you start to feel like a creep when you ask five girls in a row and they all say no. I almost feel you have to take your own partner or crew to those if you want a good dance (which I've done), and those venues also tend to be more expensive, so not everyone can do that all the time. The aversion I've seen has been more to those issues than to disliking the band itself, but that's just me.

    If you think I'm judging, maybe a little. But more than judge I want to encourage people to open up their hozirons. I also like all the groups you mentioned and I'll keep my fingers crossed that one of them will make it to Fukuoka for this year's "Isla de Salsa".
    DJ Yuca likes this.
  11. El Caobo

    El Caobo Maestro 'Salsa' Palmieri

    I have listened to timba very intensely on several occasions. There is some of it that I do enjoy. Generally speaking, however, I prefer salsa.

    Yet, I don't begrudge anyone who loves timba. It is a matter of individual taste. I've long gotten over this! Listen to what you enjoy! No one can impose their musical preferences on anyone else, in the same what that no one can impose their food preferences on anyone else. You can tell me "why" I "should" love timba, and I can tell you "why" you "should" love salsa, but it matters very little.
  12. Marcos

    Marcos Son Montuno

    El Caobo,

    I'd find it odd to join this forum and thread and expect not to be exposed to others' opinions on salsa and timba, and their charms. I'd say the same thing regarding food preferences if the discussion was being held at www.chefsforums.co.uk
    Smejmoon likes this.
  13. Smejmoon

    Smejmoon El Sabroso de Conguero

    I think we had a rule somewhere that forbids kitchen metaphors. :D
  14. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    I think it was just cake baking metaphors.
    Marcos likes this.
  15. Hanginon

    Hanginon Changui

    I'm late to the party, but this has got to be one of the best replies I've ever read! :rofl:
    terence and DJ Yuca like this.
  16. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

  17. I'm not too well versed in Salsa... but I feel like with Salsa there is not much variation. With Timba, you can get 2 timba bands who sound nothing like each other.
    If you ask my friends though they will just say its all Nandos Music :(
    timberamayor and Marcos like this.
  18. Marcos

    Marcos Son Montuno

    The problem with salsa is that the pop salsa is the only type of salsa that's mainstream. When I started to get into salsa I was watching music channels on TV in USA(the channels that only play music vice so called music channels like MTV), and at that time the producer of the salsa & merengue channel put a great variety of music including Orquesta Broadway, Cachao, Candido Fabre, and Bio Ritmo to name a few. It shouldn't be a matter of luck to get this exposure, and even though I buy and review plenty of these bands in Amazon (and Timba bands as well), my Amazon recommendations are full of pop salsa, salsa romantica, and generic sounding classic salsa bands with no Timba or experimental salsa band recommendations.

    I think this miopic view of salsa by the music industry has done considerable harm to that music, and contributed greatly to Generation X latinos to move away from salsa, as many of us wanted something more than to sing in the shower to a pretty boy crooner heartthrob. As the salsa industry hypocritically hailed innovators like Hector Lavoe, Ruben Blades, and Willie Colon while providing opportunites only for romantic singers like Jerry Rivera, Marc Anthony, and Victor Manuelle, a rap underground grew and evolved into today's reggaeton.

    There's a number of great innovators, but they don't get the exposure they deserve, and often are not hearing what each other is doing. This in turn causes them to all move in different directions with very few cases of cross pollination in their innovations.

    Long story short if you want to listen to something original I recommend: Los Hacheros, Bio Ritmo, and Zaperoko.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
    LarsM and DJ Yuca like this.
  19. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    1 and 2 para's.. same answer for both, because it "sells" .

    Add to that, the many DJs ( as noted on this site ), feed their gigs , with pop , and other easy listening styles .

    Pretty much all DJs, are controlled to some greater extent, to their audience .
    In that area, I do not succumb when I "spin " .
    Marcos likes this.
  20. Marcos

    Marcos Son Montuno

    Got it, so you're saying I need to be more aggressive with DJs, and calling radio stations every time I travel to a location that has radio stations playing salsa.

    BTW, I'll take that advice, but it doesn't explain much the Amazon recommendations.

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