Casino: The third position (caída position, V-shape, dile que no position)

Discussion in 'Just Dance' started by khabibul35, Sep 30, 2017.

  1. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    Explaining it well and giving it a name are 2 different things

    I'm not sure about others, but I don't need any names from the teacher as long as his demo/explanation/correction is good in simple words

    Books are different things, there is no demo embedded in it, so some reference in a form of name is required to understand what it's about. And let's say that teaching videos are also in this category, because there is an explanation and demo, but there is no correction of your faults from the video like you get from the teacher in person
  2. khabibul35

    khabibul35 Tumbao

    Well, that's one of the things I'm trying to figure out. How do teachers explain it?
  3. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    So the 2 are not compatible ?..

    And THATS the reason names are used for description. However, when one makes a definitive statement in "dance", they should always make sure that what they propose is a "new "concept, to check to see that it is not already in existence by another name, in this case, a variation of a Promenade position modified .

    There is also the dual purpose of" naming " in the latin genre. Many of the steps had names long before mambo/ salsa was designed and were co-opted from various dance sources and genres ( even ice skating ) .

    As a famous teacher once stated " There is nothing new in dance " .
  4. granrey

    granrey Tumbao

    Caida, at least in Spanish is a real word and it means "fall" (no the season) but in sense of falling down. like "a fall" or a "cliff". when a guy walks moving the head from side to side or over bend a knee compared to other knee while walking to look cool. People say "look his caida".
    Dissonant Harmony likes this.
  5. tocatimba

    tocatimba Shine Officer

    Yoel Marrero gets the credit for identifying and naming the position Caída in the dance of casino. YM came up with a rule structure that defines the dance (at least from Yoel's point of view). One of the principal rules is that at every beat of 8, both dancers must be in one of the three positions: Open, Closed, or Caída.

    I find the concept of Caída to be absolutely invaluable for the teaching of casino. I think it is one of the few "great" contributions made by the MCC to the teaching of this fairly complicated circular dance. It's not actually a promenade position (though it can be used for that ... if by promenade you mean walking forward together) ... it actually arose from the opening sequence of the son (going from closed to open position) ... (I'll try to describe it: the lead pushes the follow back from their closed position hold on the first three marked steps (typically 2-3-4 in son or 1-2-3 in casino) so that they are facing 90 degrees away from the original closed position. Due to the offset in their positions from the closed, the follow will be slightly behind. The important issue here and one most often neglected is that the frame pressure of hands and forearms remain .... this proto-caída position is a closed position and the closed position frame pressure continues.)

    There is a story about why YM chose the word Caída ... but I doubt it is of much interest to anyone.
    Dissonant Harmony likes this.
  6. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    So far, it sounds very interesting.
  7. tocatimba

    tocatimba Shine Officer

    I shouldn't have been so coy .... It comes from a Cuban dance expression (at least from the part of Cuba that YM is from (Matanzas Province). If someone is showing a figure to other people, they show the first three or maybe the first 9 steps for example and say "See? That's the way to do it." Then someone might say "But how does it end?" Then the teacher might say, "Nada, te caes normal" = "Nothing, you fall/drop (into place) in the normal fashion." And which means in terms of the dance, that the follow continues onto the right hand side of the leader 5-6-7-pivot into what we now call the Caída position. YM chose "caida" from the past participle of "caer".
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  8. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    Oh! Thats a nice one!
    It also goes well with granrey's explanantion! :)


    I knew YM used to have an online course.
    Do you know, perhaps if he still offers it? And if he does - Is the material targeted at non spanish-speakers as well
    tocatimba likes this.
  9. tocatimba

    tocatimba Shine Officer

    The original material for the MCC was translated (subtitled) into various languages. I've heard that there is a new version but I haven't bothered to find out about it. The original material contained aspects of a good methodology for teaching beginners how to dance casino ... I think that it had a lot of aspects that I personally think are misplaced and/or wrong. But really, if you look at the videos of "casino teachers" (like Nick in the other thread), you see immediately how superior what YM did is in comparison to what is available. With the MCC, you have to keep an open mind and not drink the kool-aid.
    vit and Dissonant Harmony like this.
  10. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    Technically speaking, it is.

    What follows, is a totally separate movement ( as many Prom positions can provide ), and PP does not mean walking forward, but only creating a modified V shape in a statutory stance .

    From a technical standpoint, "we " teach this; the LADY is the one who creates the position, whilst the man retains his .This action modifies the "travel" for the lady from that position .
  11. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    I agree with the post with this exception. It should be lead by the mans body rotation to the right. The compression used by the mans right arm initiates the opening out..

    The words "push and pull " are an anathema in teaching dance .The use of the body in dance is a far more effective tool .
    Dissonant Harmony likes this.
  12. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    Well, in my vocabulary, push and compression are not that different ... I wouldn't say that my right arm initiates opening out either or that there is some kind of compression. Just upon entry into this position, there is some rotation of both, because I do the last three steps along a kind of line that curves to the right and the follower follows my shaping, just that I stop that rotation earlier, allowing upper body to rotate a bit more and follower generally follows that movement and "opens" into caida somewhat diagonally back from me ... depending on the hold, distance can be smaller or bigger, not a big difference, and I don't always use my right arm at all, or it is in R to R hold, but the move still works pretty much the same way ...

    I suggest leaving the push / pull / compression terminology to urban kiz dancers :p
  13. tocatimba

    tocatimba Shine Officer

    Terrence, you have your vocabulary that I'm sure you learned in English. All of my teachers have been Spanish speakers. So, if you say that is a promenade position, I'll take your word for it. I was just pointing out the origin of the position came from the "aperatura" figure or sequence of the Son. I've taken a lot of Son instruction from masters in Cuba and in the USA ... they never have taught the apertura in the manner you describe. It's a very common figure in the Son and all Son teachers, teach it. Perhaps you are trying to describe how they do a promenade opening in the way it is done in Ballroom? In the Son, the frame and pressure that the follow's right hand is giving you in the closed position allows you to PUSH the follow away and allows the lead to rotate his body to the LEFT. I'm sorry if that is not the way it is done in Ballroom, but that is the way it is done in Cuban Son.

    EDIT: You know on thinking about this, I do think there is a light compression on the follow's back as you initiate the sequence to turn the upper body of the follow (my bad!) ... I would say it should be simulataneous with the push on the man's left hand. But I still maintain there is no rotation of the man's body to the right ...
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
  14. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    Yoel is definitively using it when leading caida/opening/whatever, his usage of rotation of upper body vs hips is quite nice during whole dance, giving the follower quite clear lead, although it is subtle and for most people unnoticable I suppose ... so he is unattractive to younger crowds who can see only things that are exaggerated 10x at least. Actually principles of leading with body are not that different in BR either, or even in traditional kizomba, different is styling, shape of the frame and other things that are much more visible ... However, I don't know is he actually aware of it and is it covered with his teaching method, as I don't understand much of spanish so I didn't study his videos in more detail
  15. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    Creating the opening stance technique, has little or nothing to do with the style of dance. The upper body is the signal to the follower and is dependant on the compression and frame, the amount of rotation depends upon the dance style, but, opening is opening, its just a matter of degrees.

    As to the L. hand, as long as the frame is secure. then I see no need to create any more pressure IF one is using the body correctly . Frame by and large in dance , is static.
  16. tocatimba

    tocatimba Shine Officer

    vit, thank you for challenging my beliefs and understanding ... I don't see what you're seeing. Here is a video of Yoel and Akiko dancing son. At time stamp :23, they do the Apertura. I see no turning of Yoel's body to the right. Do you?

    EDIT: Ooops I forgot to put the video:

  17. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero


    I had in mind usual combination enchufla into DQN as example. Action at pos 0:23 is somewhat different, actually a kind of similar to entry into a figure we call back whisk in BR standard, which ends in promenade position / caida and unlike in the first step of DQN, they both make next short diagonal step in the same direction (or almost), before proceeding. Rotation starts before that position is achieved, when he makes a step with right foot behind the left (at around 0:21). By making that step that way and positioning the feet into proper direction, his hips rotate more than upper body (around vertical axis), creating a torsion in the spine, which leads the follower around and then his spine unwinds back when entering promenade position / caida, which is causing the opening of the follower. It is actually a small angle (hips vs upper body), but with a good leader which I suppose he is, feels like a lot and gives the follower very clear signals. Generally, rotations of the upper part of the body is more smooth that rotation of the feet and hips. We use these things a lot in BR, just it's not something very obvious and actually not something that most BR teachers know how to teach ... also in use in traditional kizomba, just that number of kizomba teachers that would teach it isn't even zero, it's "minus" ... so that dance looks the way it looks by most ....
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2017
  18. tocatimba

    tocatimba Shine Officer

    The right foot behind the left that you mention at :21 is the end of a Cedazo (The Son/Cuban Danzón "Tight Turn") ... it's not part of the lead structure for the Apertura ....

    vit, I bow to your superior knowledge of how leads are done in Ballroom. I know that Terrence is affirming that lead dynamics are universal across dances ... to a certain extent I can see that is true ... and I see that Apertura could be done in a Ballroom fashion ... I'm just saying that empirically from the way the Son is taught and danced ... it isn't done that way.
  19. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    A side issue....
    Ironically, I would venture a guess that this position was used very early on in T/Arg. and like many other figures, was co-opted into different genres .

    A side issue...
    I've yet to find out when Son was invented..there seems to be no definitive answer .
    vit and tocatimba like this.
  20. tocatimba

    tocatimba Shine Officer

    The music or the dance?

    I think from the general structure ... it's pretty clear that the dance of Son is a direct (and gradual) development from the danzón.

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