Casino: The third position (caída position, V-shape, dile que no position)

Discussion in 'Just Dance' started by khabibul35, Sep 30, 2017.

  1. khabibul35

    khabibul35 Tumbao

    Does caída exist? Well, I have never heard any teacher in any class, workshop, or festival mention it. On youtube, I've heard a references from the Casino Para Todos people and once from Salsa Vale Todos guys calling it the V-shape. However, most others when teaching dilequeno & a bajo seem to lump it in with closed position.

    On the one hand, it does seem quite different. The leader here doesn't have their shoulders parallel to the follower like in other closed position moves and is slightly in front of the follow. That doesn't reflect the normal mechanics of closed position.

    On the other hand, if it's own position - it's not one with a lot of moves coming from it. As far as I've noticed, I see only dile que no, enchufla pa fuera, a bajo, and exhibela; tocatimba mentioned enchufla from caida, but I can't quite wrap my mind around how that might look. So, although it might well be a useful teaching technique, I can see why teachers would skip it if there's not much to refer back to here.

    I'm curious what people's experiences here with reference to this phenomenon. Have you heard of it before from any teachers? From your own observation, what do think of the idea of a caída position? Should this be a thing that's taught?
     
    #1
  2. Peason

    Peason Son

    Do you have an example of the caida position? It's kind of hard for me to wrap my head around it. :oops:
     
  3. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

  4. khabibul35

    khabibul35 Tumbao

    Closed:
    [​IMG]

    Caida:
    [​IMG]
     
  5. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    If you don't hear the name of something, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

    Back then, there were no phones with cameras and digital cameras, so people used to write things down in the books instead ... so for instance ballroom has number of various names for moves, positions, actions etc ... It's useful when teaching, so you don't need to explain what do you mean every time, but just use already established term. However, teaching also changed, so today, dance teachers don't use much terms. In my venue, social dance teachers actually never used them much even in ballroom ... approach monkey see, monkey do seems to bi dominating ...

    Closed position is when leader and follower have shoulders parallel and are also in closed hold like on above photo (right arm around her back, left arm holding her right arm). If your shoulders are parallel, but you are further apart, usually you hold only her right hand, it's open position. In ballroom, if they are in V shape position, both facing the same direction, it's promenade position... etc

    However, position in DQN is not exactly promenade position as defined in BR, because leader steps with LF forward, while follower steps with RF at place. And also, you don't have to be in closed hold, but slightly further apart and you hold her R hand with your R hand (from that, you can dance enchufla BTW). So, it's not a bad idea to have a name for it, together with some definition, so you don't have to tell your students every time what to do in that particular moment ...

    Definitively it's not closed position, unless you are dancing linear salsa and in that case you are not dancing DQN but CBL or something ...
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2017
    Dissonant Harmony likes this.
  6. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    ^Well, that's why we give things names.
    Even if 'Caida' is a word YM came up with - it doesn't necessarily mean that the position doesn't exist.
     
    manzanadulce likes this.
  7. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    Everything YM is teaching obviously exist or at least existed in Cuba, even if it doesn't exist anymore in "cuban salsa classes" around the globe. He just tried to systematize it in a way that was usual in the past in various genres .... before the term "street dancing" became famous among studio/congress trained salsa dancers :p
     
  8. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    You are half correct.. As you stated it is a " position". but it is a promenade no matter the discipline. The very word defines the angle of the bodies in a partnership .,
    what follows next is the beginning of a new step.
    To remember ; the man creates the position NOT the lady . And it may be placed in a counter direction .
     
  9. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    Yes, I became aware that I mixed position with steps after I wrote the post, just wanted to point out that in casino it usually looks different than in BR ... and yes, the opposite is called counter promenade position ... change from closed to promenade position we usually called opening ... in my area, these terms were only used in BR standard, not in BR latin for some reason ...
     
  10. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    I believe it was intentional to make a distinction from BR as the BR version ( on how we arrive there ) is essentially absent in Latin BR ( and yet, there is a whisk in Samba ! ) .
     
  11. khabibul35

    khabibul35 Tumbao

    Like you, I think it exists and the caida concept (plus a number of other concepts) are YMs biggest additions to creating a more sustainable casino teaching technique. Unfortunately, he's probably burned too many bridges to make that name stick and his system is too rigid for 99% of dancers. However, it's been a useful trick for me to help explain people the difference between DQN and CBL and get a DQN to look and feel good.

    Still, the point remains - I've never met a single person in my life (teachers included) who has heard of this concept. I wonder... is this true for others? And also, for people who have never heard of this before - do you see the usefulness in this or is it inconsequential?
     
  12. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    Comparisons in "dance " are sometimes very useful, but the distinctions need to be made very clear .
     
  13. Smejmoon

    Smejmoon El Sabroso de Conguero

    Kizombies use term caída
     
    Marisha likes this.
  14. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    For what ?
     
  15. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    Isn't it "Saida"? (Or is that another thing?)
     
  16. Smejmoon

    Smejmoon El Sabroso de Conguero

    Oh, you're right.
     
  17. Marisha

    Marisha Descarga

    Stop it:troll:
     
  18. Peason

    Peason Son

    This caida position is used in the third or fourth lesson of the beginners course where I am.

    Beginners first learn a couple of very basic travel concepts in closed position (like mambo, rumba, ...).
    The first 'move' they learn is enchufla. The move ends in closed position. When the enchufla starts to work for all the beginners, the teachers changes the end from closed position to this caida position. Then comes dile que no to end up in closed position again.
    Almost all moves that are learned after that (from beginners to advanced) end in caida position. Followed by dile que no to go back to closed position.

    All other teachers that I have taken classes with generaly end up in caida to do the dile que no. These teachers range from Cubans over Europeans that intensively went to Cuba to learn to Europeans that learned they stuff in Europe.

    I have never noticed cuban style dancers in my community not knowing this caida position.

    We also can do some other things starting from the caida position outside just the dile que no.

    The only thing that is new for me in this post is the name caida. I digged deep into my memory but could not recall it ever been mentioned before.

    So I am surprised to see the statement of "caida concept being YMs biggest additions to creating a more sustainable casino teaching technique".
    Again, making claims of being 'unique' or 'special' while it's something what lots of people around the world are already doing.
     
    Smejmoon and vit like this.
  19. terence

    terence Maestro 'Descarga' Cachao

    Sales technique
     
  20. khabibul35

    khabibul35 Tumbao

    Of course other people do it, it's a critical part of the dance! The question is, do they teach it? Do they have a name for it?

    Because although my teachers have proper technique and are great social dancers, they did not teach caida. Through time, I learned it. But me literally took me years to get it down. Looking back, it's a bit embarrassing that I began assistant teaching before I had the DQN down correctly. I would have easily gotten it by then, but the lack of a concept for it prevented it. In lieu of proper technique I would step into the woman's path/push her back on 1 for DQN! It was only after years of social dancing it clicked for me, that backstep is useless! I began using caida to guide my followers forward. (But even then, I was barely aware of how this worked or why... It just worked!)

    In my opinion, being able to avoid this process by properly teaching caida as position; well, to me, it's no trivial matter!

    Disagree! Giving a word to something has a powerful effect on one's consciousness. Differences in language have a profound effect on how people perceive the world. Once you become aware of such a thing, you recognize it much more easily. YM may be an idiot in many respects, but his attention to detail is commendable!
     
    manzanadulce and Juanan like this.

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