Asking on-1 or on-2 then dancing neither

Discussion in 'Just Dance' started by David, Jul 18, 2016.

  1. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    That part is not problematic and I fully agree with it. However, CBM, which is actually a rotation of shoulders vs hips in BR standard around vertical axis, starts with some side lead at the beginning of the step. Rotation happens during the step (1st step of natural turn in waltz for instance). In merengue/salsa/etc, there is also rotation of shoulders vs hips around vertical axis and somewhere at the beginning of the step (if using the same BR step definition) they are aligned or you have shoulder lead if you want, but during the step it turns opposite as demoed by ET in walking example ... not exactly like he demoed, it's a bit different, shoulders turn first and hips after that, they are not exactly the oposite ... so regarding vertical axis differences BR standard vs merengue/salsa/etc are not that big. Difference is that in merengue/salsa/etc hips and shoulders rotate around other two axis as well, and as consequence spine bends, while in BR standard they don't and spine doesn't bend, just vertical axis tilts to maintain balance which is called technical sway in new books (there are other 2 types) .... and most salsa dancers are actually familiar with these rotations od hips and shoulders and they are practicing them on isolation classes or during warmup (though implementation in real couple dancing is quite of a problem for non latin people) ... but in your theory these things didn't have much accent, your main accent was on these two terms which should somehow make salsa dancing better ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  2. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    This is something we seem to disagree on. For me the rotation of the two (CBM and CM/SL) is opposite so it cannot be the same. Also BR standard has definitely CBM in it but I don't personally need CBM in merengue. I guess our dancing styles are different!
     
  3. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    I didn't say things are the same - they are certainly considerably different (totally different genre, big difference in usual length of the step, move with turn vs. move without turn etc), I just said that difference in that detail is smaller than elsewhere in my opinion ... I didn't mean that there is a CBM in merengue, I was talking about rotations shoulders vs hips in merengue and waltz and tried to translate that into old BR standard terminology after that. As I said, new books moved a bit forward, they did some researches about dance biomechanics so logically they adapted some terminology from other sports where it was already done decades ago as they deal with sport dance. Even in ballet it was done long ago, just ballroom was stuck somewhere in the middle of XX century when it was about literature (there were some exceptions like Scrivener mentioned by terence a few times, not well accepted by others)

    Obviously we came to the point where we can't come closer with agreement, so we can only leave it as it is. Maybe just one more thing that came into my mind in the meantime, did you also consider the differences if you are doing short forward steps vs. short backward steps (whether merengue or casino), there are also some specifics here connected with relation of shoulders and legs, in a sense if you go forward, you go forward with for instance left shoulder and left leg, but if you go backward, you still go forward with left shoulder but backward with left leg ... etc ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  4. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    Yes you are probably right on the first point. On the fwd or bwd steps, for me, as long as they are steps and not fwd or bwd breaks then in merengue or salsa Shoulder Lead applies so shoulder follows the moving/weight taking leg. For me CBM is used only when changing directions.
     
  5. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    Yes, I meant doing consecutive steps whether forward or backward when dancing for instance merengue or in rueda. There are some DVDs about body movement in salsa out there, which don't agree with you regarding backward steps (if I understood correctly what you mean). It's because movement of the hips and shoulders are mainly a consequence of weight transfer and not that much of direction of the steps (assuming they are relatively short like they are in latin dances).
    These things are also defined more precisely in new BR latin books and some new terms are used, borrowed from biomechanics ... so for instance action named as Contra body movement by ET in that video has a name translation of hips in frontal plane for instance, because he shown sideways movement of hips in relation to shoulders and no rotation ... his walking example was rotation in transversal plane ... well known (in both salsa and BR) figure 8 is a combination of rotation and translation etc ... also action of muscles (settle, active and swing) have some new names - depending do you use more weight transfer or more core muscles for the body movement ... which you can observe in salsa as well (and even kizomba) - depending on the style, more or less of those action is used ... etc ... no need to reinvent the wheel or use stone-age wheels ...

    But anyway, for me there are only good teachers (that can teach me something or correct something) and bad teachers (that can't) and I don't care about the language, terms, science in the background etc ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  6. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    I think this is exactly what I said (I clearly used "weight taking leg").

    It would be interesting to see these new names. Which books are you referring to?
     
  7. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    It looks like we always refer to the opposite side of the sentence. Let me make it more clear. You said shoulder lead is used when doing those steps. In BR standard it refers to direction of movement / step, so if you move (in BR) forward with left leg, it means left shoulder is also forward. If you move backward with left leg, it means left shoulder is also back. And if you move your left leg to side, it's a side step and can't be shoulder lead. Out of those 3 cases, only first one is approximately true for particular moment around the beginning of merenge and similar step

    WDSF technique books, I thought it was obvious as I mentioned WDSF in connection with those books
    I'm not saying that scientific stuff inside (which could still bear some improvements) has some special value or is especially needed to be successful dance teacher - I'm quite fine if the teacher is using simple everyday vocabulary, as long as he can help my dancing. They did it because they wanted to make it similar to other sports, in connection with their wish to bring it to olympics, which existed far back in my BR days and probably even earlier and isn't likely to happen regardless of their efforts ... But I just don't like when dance teachers try selling me some ballroom pseudoscience instead of teaching me how to dance
     
  8. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    Thanks for the WSDF! I also agree with your last comment. Overanalysis was always a problem for me too so it helped a lot when I kept some basic principles and allowed the rest to flow.

    On the first part we still have a misunderstanding. It is not about whether you move fwd the shoulder with the leg but which of the two shoulders is more fwd than the other. So if you do CBM and move left leg fwd with weight on it, then even if left shoulder moves fwd, the right is more fwd than the left shoulder. In SL if you move fwd on the left leg then left shoulder moves fwd too and is more fwd than the right shoulder. The hips are obliged to align.

    In otherwords it is about relative positions of legs vs shoulders not absolute ones.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
  9. azana

    azana Super Moderator Staff Member

    I'm beginning to think you two need your own thread for this discussion...
     
    Offbeat, Jag75, akdancer and 2 others like this.
  10. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    Yeah, I wanted to conclude it several times so far, but obviously we are talking different languages and it could continue forever without any progress. Maybe you should move last few pages to hip movement thread or where appropriate. I wish L2D good luck in further development of his theory (as I already said, hopefully now for the last time). Over and out ...
     
  11. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    I agree that this belongs to the hip action thread. And I will finish to by saying that this is not my theory but how I was taught to dance!
    Roger...
     
  12. azana

    azana Super Moderator Staff Member

    I was thinking of something along the lines of 'Vit and Live2dances's Amicable Discussion' thread... :)
     
  13. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    Fixed that for you. :p
     
    Offbeat likes this.

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