Asking on-1 or on-2 then dancing neither

Discussion in 'Just Dance' started by David, Jul 18, 2016.

  1. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    This is what several people claim (am sure you read the "Spinning of mambo into salsa" book)! It seems he inserted primarily the acrobatic lifts of hustle/disco in salsa. So he might be the reason why we see so many acrobatics in salsa demos these days! But the last point is a personal guess. Given his age I think he is doing fine!
     
  2. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    McMains takes his claims at face value (despite video evidence to the contrary, which I assume she was unaware of) - her and Bermudez makes 2 people. Who else claims this?

    Generally speaking a performance is not meant to be a demo of social dancing, so it was inevitable that acrobatics, lifts etc would arrive in salsa performances. In fact there were acrobatics in mambo era performances.

    What is probably true is that Bermudez was the 1st to bring the hustle influence to LA salsa.

    Maybe I'm being unduly harsh, as that side of things is outside my field of expertise, but that's how it looks to me. (Also that vid is from years ago, so I'm not sure he was that old at the time.)
     
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  3. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    I will not make a further guess on who was the first but do you have another video with such high flying hustle acrobatics and salsa? The best person to ask would have been Nelly Cotto but I think she is dead now (though am not sure). I remember seeing a video from the 70s where he was dancing with her and another teacher, learning acrobatics and then a further video where he was doing these acrobatics with his daughters. He must have been at least in his mid-thirties in the 70s. Furthermore, I think that Ron refers to salsa as son-based cuban music (but again this is a personal guess).

    PS The video is from 2016 according to the publishing date I see. He also looks like some of his other recent videos. Do you see a different date in any comments?

    PS2 Happy New Year!!
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2016
  4. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    No but, as I said, mambo dancers used to do acrobatics in their performances. Was he the 1st to mix the acrobatic side of hustle with salsa? Quite possibly. (However, as I have already stated, the hustle influence was present in NY salsa social dancing from the early 70s.)

    In that case I was probably mistaken in thinking the vid to be from years ago.

    Thanks and the same to you!
     
  5. vit

    vit Clave Commander

    Actually I don't understand why you are continuing to use obsolete ballroom terms in salsa forum. CBM is totally banned from the charts in latest WDSF BR standard books and replaced with more precise descriptions what is going on regarding rotation between hips and shoulders during particular steps of the figures, and shoulder lead is replaced with side lead. They were not used even in old BR latin books (except for non-latin based Paso doble where they are also banned now) where the topic is a bit closer to salsa than BR standard. Both of these mean nothing to 98% members here, except those few who danced some BR and didn't forget it in the meantime. I have never heard them used in salsa classes. I mean, if you try sorting things out in your head that's fine, but it won't help people to dance salsa
    On the other side you didn't even try to get what I wanted to say regarding rotation of shoulders vs hips, while most salsa dancers are familiar with that (just not in scientific terms like phase difference which I used on purpose)
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
  6. MAMBO_CEC

    MAMBO_CEC Sabor Ambassador

    You are not mistaken. The video was uploaded in 2016 but obviously it is much older than that. Eddie and his wife look much younger than now.
     
    vit likes this.
  7. vit

    vit Clave Commander

    Bermudez also looks much younger than on more recent clips, although his arms are as disconnected from his body as now.
    I would say video is from late 90s or around 2000 max
     
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  8. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    First of all Happy New Year!

    On your points, these terms are still used in lessons, from national champion level people.

    Do they count to salseros? Not the normal guy/lady on the street. But for ET it does! And I admit I really like the honesty of the guy. He started dancing and then tried to place the technique in there in order to get to the next level. This sounds so familiar. But still, it is important to get the terms right or people are going to get confussed.

    On your rotation aspect I fully answered but I will redo it point by point:
    1) it is not about shoulder vs hip but shoulder vs moving/weight taking leg.
    2) yes you can include what ever you want in your dancing as long as it fits the music. That includes different levels of and variations of torso vs leg rotation and includes CBM. Are these variations always needed in salsa? To my view no. You can dance salsa without CBM and what ever that implies in your range of angular rotation!
     
  9. vit

    vit Clave Commander

    Sure they are, they have been dancing for quite a time and learned that way. Many of them also insist on other things that were obsolete decades ago. These changes don't happen overnight.

    ET obviously picked the CBM term from BR world decades ago searching the knowledge from various sources, as we can see from that archive clip. I didn't attend his classes, so I don't know is he still using it. However, FM didn't use any BR terms on the body movement class I attended. He put the emphasis on execution and avoided wasting time on non important things like terms

    However, trying to get terms right by proposing obsolete terms from other genre to the genre where people don't use them doesn't sound like a way to prevent them from getting confused in my opinion, especially having in mind that most salseros don't like ballroom. And you insist on a term that isn't used by ET and that does make sense in the genre where the point is on linear movement like BR standard. Linear movement isn't the point in salsa dancing. And you still didn't get what I was talking about

    Happy New Year !
     
  10. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    :rolleyes: So how do you know that ET is not using it when he is onviously talking about it extensively in the video? And again you are not getting my point either. It is not about the absolete term. It is about using it wrongly!!!!!

    For your points you have to explain differently because we are out of wavelength.

    As for linear in salsa, but this is what I see in lots of videos and this is what annoys me. But it is a personal taste.
     
  11. vit

    vit Clave Commander

    He talks about hips going sideways (for instance right) and shoulders to the opposite side (for instance left) and he calls it CBM (which is obviously not what CBM is/was in BR). Then he talks about other action where you go forward with left foot and right arm and calls it walking. Etc
    You are talking about shoulder lead and going forward (for instance) with shoulder and leg aligned, for instance left shoulder and left leg forward

    Can't find the connection between his and your interpretation of something we used to call cuban movement, both are quite incomplete as it is considerably more complex than that ... to the extent that it's hard to accurately describe it without writing a scientific dissertation ... which would be useless like most of them ...

    But his point was on on2 timing and not on body movement
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
  12. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    I think the guy deserves a bit more respect in the sense that he has had a very rich life in terms of salsa and dancing does not seem to have been his main activity. Have a look at this video in the other thread. Anyway he was a kid in the 50s so that would mean minimum 50 but even he confessed that his teachers didn't like the whole idea.

    http://www.salsaforums.com/threads/wanted-film-of-back-in-the-day-dancing.8327/page-11#post-322474
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017
  13. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    As long as we agree that what he is referring to as CBM is not CBM then am fine and I stop talking about the ET video.

    Ok am getting the issues a bit more clearly now. I did mention this if you search back that you always move arms and legs in opposition otherwise you will look like the Genesis "I can't sing, I can't dance" video (which exactly what ET is demonstrating on how NOT to walk). The difference between CBM and CM/shoulder lead is whether the shoulders also move in opposition or aligned with the moving leg. In CBM if the leg moves forward then the same side shoulder moves back behind the other shoulder. In shoulder lead if the leg moves fwd the same side shoulder also moves fwd in front of the other shoulder. BUT in both cases the arms are moving in opposition to the same side leg (like normal walking). This is why I keep on emphasising leg vs shoulder (not arms or hips).
     
  14. vit

    vit Clave Commander

    Sure I respect him, his efforts and achievements. Just that his arms look disconnected from his body. I think that we had nice videos of latin people older even than him in his more recent video that had arms connected with the body when dancing

    And of course I respect ET. He was/is obviously a great teacher as evident by his students - several of them are top salsa dancers. It's just that his description of salsa dancing in the video with Ron was quite brief, just enough to get a clue what it was about and the point was actually on on2 rhythm. I'm also ok about the fact that he used CBM with different meaning than in BR, as it's evident what he actually meant from his short demo and body parts he mentioned were moving opposite direction. It just wasn't enough to change Ron's way of dancing including arms - with student aged 50, usually not much can be done

    And I also respect your attempts to present a kind of unified theory of latin dancing. Just that there are some issues - for instance several of us don't like the idea to include the word "merengue" in that theory for several reasons. And also, your description of relation of legs, shoulders and arms is too simplified (maybe you should check some old and very good Azzey's posts). And the term shoulder lead is problematic. As long as you are using similar definition/description as in BR, it doesn't match what is actually happening in salsa or merengue, because those are not ballrooom. We don't have a BR frame here, so complete dynamics of body movement is considerably different (although there are similarities as well, even there where you wouldn't expect them). If you change the description so that it is closer to reality, like BR people did for CBM, then it will be causing confusion similar way like CBM used by ET .... So BR people correctly decided to use different words for new descriptions as well. And in salsa world we already have a term for it. So good luck with further development of your theory
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  15. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    I am not trying to claim anything because others like @terence who have considerable more experience than me already said that there are some universal principles. It cannot be all different. Also I started from merengue and moved to salsa and the latin BR and I can say that the differences are not as big as you believe they are. If you add in the mix things like merengue, son hip action and even ballet / appropriate posture I think you have most of the ingedients needed to get the int BR latin style (at least at basic level). This is why I don't agree with using different terminology for different dances. It is the same body that moves but in a different way so we just need to understand the way of movement and this was overall what CBM and CM/shoulder lead were able to provide. So at basic level I can see why teachers are happy to keep using these terms (but they should use them consistently or else it will be a mess - worse than we have now).
     
  16. vit

    vit Clave Commander

    That's funny ... I actually think that a problem with your theory is claiming there are differences where the things are actually not that different and not explaining things that are actually quite different. So your theory, as I understand it, actually fails to explain for instance the difference between the waltz and merengue (regarding shoulder lead and CBM) and not only between salsa and merengue ...

    As about terminology, you or this forum are not making the rules here - it's worldwide salsa mainstream doing it and we can't do anything about it ... don't expect Terry or ET consulting this site about correct therminology
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  17. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    Well if you consider that BR latin and BR modern are the same thing (i.e. both BR dancing) then ok there are no differences. But when you see a latino walk and a northern European walk it is not the same thing. So do you expect them to dance the same way? I think we can agree that the answer is no.

    But from my past experience all of my teachers were very clear in discriminating between CBM and SL/CM in terms of basics of modern vs latin dancing (in other words in basics waltz is clearly different from merengue if you use the CBM vs SL/CM definitions). However, when I see current top level amateur or pro latin dancers their routines are full of CBM because it gives them speed. So it is not that the two cannot co-exist in the same routine or dance, but there are limits, don't you think? Otherwise a salsa will (or should I say "is") start looking like an English waltz or more like an American smooth!!!

    As for mainstream salsa, no they do not make the rules either. Each teacher seems to have his own vocabulary, own interpretation of moves, own understanding of body mechanics and own teaching method ranging from very / quite good to absolute nightmare. They follow no book and they have no standard. They are just "good" dancers (or even worse "think" they are good dancers) and hence they become teachers while not having a clue about body mechanics. They just learn patterns or invent something on the spot (most of the time "out of time") and teach them. And when people ask them their experience they proudly say "I dance salsa for two years" and am thinking, hey I have been dancing for 20 years, in more than five countries and I still don't claim that I can be a teacher!

    So when I see ET saying what he says about the importance of technique to get to a different dancing level or him using terms like CBM and merengue to explain basic concepts then it proves to me that this guy is beyond just a good dancer but that he is really trying to be a good teacher too! I just wish he could use the standard terms in a standard way! I know you will say "but it is BR"! Yeah but BR spend a good amount of time to try to interpret dance moves (sometimes copying from ballet) so why do we have to start again from zero? This does not mean we should do BR when dancing salsa, no way! But the terminologies of basic body movements do not need to be different.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
  18. vit

    vit Clave Commander

    Yes, that's exactly the part I find problematic- I think that the differences are bigger in pretty much everything else than here, if you move your observing point from 1940 ballroom definitions a bit forward, while you made the biggest point on this in some of your previous posts

    With the rest of your last post I mostly agree

    Maybe another thing about dance teachers - maybe it's like in some other areas - that people are getting the teachers they deserve ...
     
  19. Groove On

    Groove On Sonero

    For me, 22:00-26:00 min was the most interesting part of that video. Where he talks about how students lose the fun when they start taking too many classes. And also where he talks about how that has affected him as well.
     
  20. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    I think you are a bit harsh on the last point. I don't think anyone deserves a bad teacher. The main problem is they don't know they have one!

    On the first point, for me the CBM vs CM/SL is the main difference because, for example, in Waltz without CBM you cannot get swing or sway, which you don't use in merengue - though you could if you wanted to (but then you will look really different). In fact in the UK, beginners are taught steps with swing and sway from the start. On the other hand, in Italy beginners were taught to dance all modern BR in the line of dance with the gent facing the line of dance all the time. At that point all dances almost looked the same.

    And even in current BR latin (with cha being a very good example) you will struggle to find a simple basic chacha in a top level routine comp routine. It is all about the empasis on the 1. And if I switch the sound off sometimes it takes half a dance to distinguish between a samba and a cha (ok I exaggerate a bit).
     

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