Asking on-1 or on-2 then dancing neither

Discussion in 'Just Dance' started by David, Jul 18, 2016.

  1. kbitten

    kbitten Clave Commander

    Everybody please agree with live2troll that cimbianrengue and his p2 are the best way to dance cause that's what he is trying to prove since a long time ago..

    Then end this discussion pleeease!! It makes no difference to us ladies if you r dancing one way or the other and remember, its ALL about the ladies!

    About Joel he is such a nice guy. I never took his classes but danced with him a few times in Ny! He is now doing one video about salsa tips for day and I saw a few and they are interesting! Better discuss those videos than about what name do you wanna call a break! IT'S ALL ON2 !!!!
    SnowDancer, vit and lidiap like this.
  2. Nuyorican

    Nuyorican Son Montuno

    Ok. I’ll bite.

    Just this once though as I don’t usually feed internet trolls.

    A poster on this thread seemed confused about NY style dancing. I tried to clear this up and got trolled by you and him. After that it was obvious to me you guys had no real interest in the topic (that strayed from the original topic) being discussed.

    And since I don’t feed trolls, I will no longer respond.

    I mean come on! My explanation was pretty basic and easy to understand and I still had to link to my teachers so they can further explain. Another SF member (MamboCEC) also provided info and he got trolled. Some nonsense about sneezing salsa (seriously??!!)

    And still after all these pages of going back and forth this person still keeps insisting its Power2.

    Which leads me to believe it’s not a reading comprehension issue.

    He’s a troll.

    Anyway…if anyone interested will be in the NY area this week Joelsalsa has a practica tomorrow (Thursday) from 8:30 to 10:30 pm. Non students are welcome.

    Come see what we’ve been trying to explain to L2D with your own eyes.

    I’m done.
    Offbeat, MAMBO_CEC and lidiap like this.
  3. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    I never said one way is better than the other. I just don't understand why a lot of you have decided that there is only one On2 style that started from ET2 and mutated to basically everything else rather than accepting that there are other ways of dancing On2 salsa like Power 2. What is your problem with P2?

    And also I don't understand, no matter how nice a person is, how you people can accept that someone is saying X but does Y (with clear video evidence) and say nothing about it. Imagine the confusion you are causing to all those who are starting salsa right now.

    And you call me a troll! Happy to be a troll like that! But away from the "kingdom of the blind".
  4. lidiap

    lidiap Descarga

  5. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'El Diferente' Canales

    This is not something that can be resolved in back and forth by written word.

    1. The writer may frame his experssion incorrectly.
    2. The reader may interprete what writer wanted to convey incorrectly.
    3. Both the writer and reader might have different understanding of the same word.

    Until you get in person and compare notes by actually doing the steps, this is not going to be resolved. When writing about body's actions, something is going to be left out because including everything is headsplitting to read (and write). You can only write about generics.

    Bottomline is everyone is going to stick to their positions and no opnions are going to change. Futile to argue when one is not open minded to understand a differing view.
    Live2dance and vit like this.
  6. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'El Diferente' Canales

    Strawman!! That is why others are saying you are trolling.
    kbitten and Salsa Student like this.
  7. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    Yeah, a few months ago during similar discussion I compared some recent posts with posts from a few years ago
    Level of open-mindness considerably reduced since. Interesting that it is similar in my salsa/kizomba venue.
  8. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    You are perfectly right. But then when we have videos and we are able to see something with our own eyes people should be able to accept if something is against their initial descrption.

    I look at the videos and see:
    - the lady placing the heel down on four in the first
    - tap and break with the same foot from the guy in the second.

    But people still instist that it is not the case. As I said, call me a troll but those who can't see or willingly refuse to see are blind!
    Dissonant Harmony likes this.
  9. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    That's the main problem - many things in dancing are some kind of illusion - one can see something and think it works this way (based on previous understanding of the dance) but it actually works other way. And since everybody here have different teachers, with different styles(or even genres) and different teaching methods, they see different things looking the same video. So heated technical discussions mostly don't lead anywhere
    Offbeat and Slowdance like this.
  10. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'El Diferente' Canales

    I personally don't believe in videos because in my personal experience they give a very different perspective than when I watch someone in person. If it is a specific video to show a basic step or weight transfer I can understand - but only if I had same experience learning in real. If I am trying to learn it from video without having ever been taught the basic mechanics in real, the video would be less useful and probably useless leading me to wrong technique/conclusions. That is because it is one way passive instructions (which is not same as teaching). The person demonstrating can't interact with you. There is only one way information flowing from demonstrator to you. And that information is not being delivered specific to you or your situation, but to everyone at large.

    As far as trying to infer something from watching someone social dance or perforn, one can comment on asthetics, and or something that is glaringly obvious. But I don't believe in drawing minute details/of whether someone is half a beat ahead or behind/weight shifts/foot placement/etc from a video. Plus you are only watching only one dance. Not enough sample.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2016
    terence, Slowdance, vit and 2 others like this.
  11. Offbeat

    Offbeat Maestro 'El Diferente' Canales

    If that is the case there are two possible reasons:

    1. Level of participation has decreased.
    2. If any one is dogmatic about espousing only one way or admant about it to keep repeating it, most reasonable people will lose interest in discussion. And it will harden the position of those disagreeing.

    To give an analogy from dancing, if the partner stiffs their arm, natural reaction is to stiff one's own arms thinking that will lead to better control. But the it is the opposite that works - if you losen your arms, you get better results.

    I think many regular participants have left or are not positing anymore.
    wol, MAMBO_CEC, vit and 1 other person like this.
  12. Salsa Student

    Salsa Student Pattern Police

    I think veterans of the board have just gotten smarter about when it's not worth posting.
    Nuyorican, kbitten and SnowDancer like this.
  13. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    I do believe that watching video and applying some basic principles can give someone a very good understanding of someone else's dancing. But I fully accept your last point that this is a limited sampling. It is possible he was trying to adapt to the partner. Or he was experimenting or... That I accept. But still we should be able to describe what we see even if it is a limited sample. Even if it is not conclussive of someone's way of dancing.

    And I was honestly interested in what @Nuyorican was describing. This is why I wanted to hear and see more of it.

    One last personal point though, and this is personal, am fed up of "bad teachers". AM NOT saying that this couple is bad. Am personally very sensitive to it and especially the "Do as I say not as I do" kind of teachers. So the moment I pick up such discrepancies, and videos are good way of doing that, well ...

    MAMBO_CEC Sabor Ambassador

    Hustle guy gets schooled by Maestro Eddie Torres about dancing on2.
  15. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    He says it's like merengue :p
    Live2dance and MAMBO_CEC like this.
  16. Dissonant Harmony

    Dissonant Harmony Rhythm Deputy

    I just recalled that Oliver Pineda says something about it in his Body-Movement DVD.
  17. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    I hope that this video settles the discussion on the importance of merengue. So even ET is teaching merengue and the three merengue steps to start with!

    However his definition of what he does when he does the merengue as a "contrary body motion" is the first time I hear it. But what he is describing is what BR calls "showlder lead" or "left-right lead".

    I have to admit that these two guys have been very influencial in different ways and it is very interesting to see them interact like this. ET is saying quite a few interesting things. Also it seems to me that Maria Torres is equally very influential.

    Great video! Thanks for sharing!
  18. vit

    vit El Sabroso de Conguero

    Yeah, I'm sure everybody will become a new FM by watching the video, especially now when one can't miss it as you posted the link in 4 or so threads :rolleyes:

    I don't see anything really new in this video that wasn't explained to me at least 100 times

    He didn't teach merengue here, he spent a minute of two explaining normal walking, then mentioned walking in place and finally mentioned merengue with 1 sentence

    I understand your confusion between ballroom terms contrary body movement and side lead (or shoulder lead as it was called or showlder lead as you call it). Can't be different, as dance teachers are confused with that as well. Confusion exists way back since Alex Moore Ballroom dancing book in 40s or even earlier. Dance lessons are not scientific researches, so verbal explanation is one thing, slow motion demo is other thing, normal speed demo on the count is third thing, demo on the music is fourth thing, real dancing of the same person is the fifth thing etc. It's how it is in dancing, take it or leave it

    The fact is, when we are dancing, we don't move (or at least shouldn't) like a piece of furniture. There is always some isolation of upper body from lover body, be it latin, african or ballroom (whether BR latin or BR standard). Just that type of isolation is different. Things are never actually the opposite either (like he is trying to explain here and not much different in Oliver Pineda DVD) or the same side (like you insist in your merengue thing regarding rotation around vertical axis), meaning phase difference is never constantly 180 degrees or 0 degrees, but can be anything between -180 and +180 and is changing constantly. So you have interchanging of "side leads" and "contrary body movements" during dancing. Nobody will tell you accurately when and how much - it would be useless anyway, and nobody will come really close demonstrating it slow motion either although some are better than others here

    Only thing that we can accurately say is that dancing is based on our normal walking, running and other types of our movement, like he did, and we can include some similar action in other dances, like he did. Everything else is lot of practicing and in person correction of someone dancing better than you
    Nuyorican, MAMBO_CEC and terence like this.
  19. DJ Yuca

    DJ Yuca El Sabroso de Conguero

    That's the same guy who claims to have invented mixing hustle with salsa? (At least 5 years after it had been done in NY.) No offence to anyone but his basic step doesn't look good to me (nothing to do with on1 v on2).
    Nuyorican and MAMBO_CEC like this.
  20. Live2dance

    Live2dance Shine Officer

    One by one! It seems some people need to hear it 100 times until something gets stuck in their brain!!! Sarcasm for sarcasm! o_O

    Oh please! Who is the troll :troll:
    He clearly said "he is doing merengue" and that this is how he shows people how to move!!! No wonder I need to repeat things 100 times. Anyway, here you have it and it is up to whoever wants to learn salsa to judge! Some in here are beyond "repair"!

    Am not confussed at all! Perhaps you need to go back to your basic dancing theory! CBM is CBM and shoulder lead is shoulder lead!!! Merengue is the normal shoulder lead. And what I said, ET and Pineda said are fully aligned when it comes to the actual body action. But it is not CBM. When ET is showing how to walk he does CBM. When he shows merengue he is doing shoulder leads. Sorry this is the way it is! In Real latin you can dance with no CBM at all going from shoulder lead to neutral! The moment you start adding breaks then you add the CBM.

    The reason why I find the ET CBM point wrong is because he seems to be implying that CBM is about contra position between the hip and the shoulder while it should be about the relative direction of travelling of the weight taking leg and the shoulder.

    There we agree but different people walk different ways! And this is why dances are different.

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