Songs dictating the beat to dance on?

olamalam

olamalam

Son Montuno
Terence reminded me of this dictator songs in salsa thing in:
You Teach On1, But You Prefer To Dance On2 Socially?

Unfortunately my weak ears can't differentiate on1 or on2 dictating songs yet. I'm dancing on2 if my partner doesn't dictates me to dance on1 :)

Sometimes I find it hard to dance on2 if conga slaps are weak but I'm not sure if this is what people mean by "on1 dictating song".

Or sometimes I find it hard to dance on1 if clave is strong because my ears tend to follow clave if it is hear-able. Then I turn to on2 and most of the time my dictator partner doesn't notice it :)

So, short of long, I need to train my ears to differentiate on1 songs & on2 songs. (cuban songs are easy, no problem with that :) )
Can you please write a couple of examples of songs that are more suitable for on1 dancing and on2 dancing?
 
And a question to Djs,

Are you following dancers and play more on2 songs if you see that people are mostly dancing on2? Or just playing random salsa songs from your hard drive ;)
 
I find myself wanting to dance contratiempo to more and more songs and in fact I think i may accidentally even drift into contratiempo without meaning to :o
 
I see some dancers here trying to dance on2 drifting even further, so that forward / backward step is closer to 3 / 7 than to 2 / 6 . Since I didn't pay too much attention to dancing salsa on2 so far (although I'm dancing cha cha / ballroom rumba on 2 from the begining), I don't know is it how on2 is danced worldwide, but it looks to me like they are late on the rhythm
 
vit said:
I see some dancers here trying to dance on2 drifting even further, so that forward / backward step is closer to 3 / 7 than to 2 / 6 . Since I didn't pay too much attention to dancing salsa on2 so far (although I'm dancing cha cha / ballroom rumba on 2 from the begining), I don't know is it how on2 is danced worldwide, but it looks to me like they are late on the rhythm
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From what I understand of various posts some NY on2 dancers dance a half beat later, but I guess one of the On2 people should address that.
 
I think it's reasonably relevant to the topic of the thread, I think we could keep it here unless you want an essay :P

I precede all of this with the disclaimer: this is all my own opinion.

Ok to keep it short, most things Colombian are going to feel 'on1', Fruko for example, anything from El Preso to Cachondea. Whilst this might break my rule of thumb for purely melody driven music, it still showcases, in most cases strong melodic phrasing, with the audible conga (where present) taking a back seat. My personal favourite Si te has de Marchar by Los Adolescentes feels very 'on1' to me, very strong downbeats, very melody/song phrasing based. The musical 'hits' for me are all happening on1.

I think Salsa 'Romantica' in general is somewhat middle ground for on1 and on2 dancers. Take Tito Nieves, something like De mi enamorate, it features a strong piano (which always emphasises the 1 to me), a strong vocal phrasing and even some 1 biassed percussion. Victor Manuelle - Mentiras feels 'on1' to me, with very powerful downbeats and dominant vocal phrasing/horns.

Alot of Frankie Ruiz material feels melodic driven and so 'on1' but then his success being PR based that is probably no surprise.

A few more: La India, Estupida feels on1, Brenda Starr Herida, Celia Cruz 'La vida es un Carnival' - very 1-centric to me.

As to on2, well I covered the Salsa Romantica 'middle ground' above, moving into definite on2 music to me.

Anything extremely conga centric/dominated is going to fall into this category, so where those slaps are loud and proud I hear 'on2.' Plus very smooth salsa dura, say 'El Cantante' whilst having a strong vocal has that strong tumbao going on, and a smoothness that feels 'on2' as opposed to the higher tension I associate with 'on1.'

This isn't the best reponse ever, it does wander, but I'm a bit tired :)
 
wildbill20056 said:
My personal favourite Si te has de Marchar by Los Adolescentes feels very 'on1' to me, very strong downbeats, very melody/song phrasing based. The musical 'hits' for me are all happening on1.
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First of all, thank you for detailed answer.
I haven't heard this song before, it's really nice. And I'm agree with you, it sounds more likely to on1 because it's so melodic and vocals are strong.

wildbill20056 said:
I think Salsa 'Romantica' in general is somewhat middle ground for on1 and on2 dancers. Take Tito Nieves, something like De mi enamorate, it features a strong piano (which always emphasises the 1 to me), a strong vocal phrasing and even some 1 biassed percussion.
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Yes, piano is the strongest instrument here, clear 1&5s. But also congas are also so clear in this song. I think I'd prefer to dance on2 to such romantica songs since it feels better with longer middle step and quick-quick-slow tempo. This song sounds like it's flowing so does dancing on2.

wildbill20056 said:
A few more on1:
  1. La India, Estupida
  2. Brenda Starr Herida
  3. Celia Cruz 'La vida es un Carnival'
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1- Is it because vocals dominate the song?
2- I think I would prefer dancing on2 to this song either because of that flowing thing. But in the second half of the song, piano is much stronger, I might turn to on1 in the second half :P
3- Totaly agree with you. I think I'd even struggle to dance on2 to this song. The only thing I hear is horns and melodic vocals.

I'll make a on1 and on2 playlist and listen to them seperately. I think it's an important skill to develop.

@moderator
What was wrong with my title, dictator songs?! :)
 
wildbill20056 said:
Anything extremely conga centric/dominated is going to fall into this category, so where those slaps are loud and proud I hear 'on2.'
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Yes, loud conga slaps make it so easy to dance on2.

wildbill20056 said:
Plus very smooth salsa dura, say 'El Cantante' whilst having a strong vocal has that strong tumbao going on, and a smoothness that feels 'on2' as opposed to the higher tension I associate with 'on1.'
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This songs dictates me to dance. No matter on1 or on2 :)

wildbill20056 said:
This isn't the best reponse ever, it does wander, but I'm a bit tired :)
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I tried to tidy it :) It was useful though, thanks again.
 
With the help of the information above,

Miguel Enriquez - Abre Que Voy dictates on1 because it's very melodic and it has strong piano and horns.
Grupo Latin Vibe - La LLave dictates on1 because piano is the main instrument in this song.
 
olamalam said:
So, short of long, I need to train my ears to differentiate on1 songs & on2 songs. (cuban songs are easy, no problem with that :) )
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In my mind most Cuban songs are On2 songs if dance style is crossbody. If dance style is cuban On3 and On1 suit as well. On1 crossbody and cuban music seems often like bit difficult combination to dancers. I do not dance much cuban, but when I do I dance it On2 (contratiempo).

I dance a lot of crossbody to cuban music and in Helsinki cuban music is really popular.
 
Olamolam I'd happily go along with your latest long distinctions. I think with La LLave it's slightly both ways for me. Xylophones always suggest 2 to me, but maybe in this case we could compromise and call it power2 :)

Also I realise I made a mistake I really meant to refer to Tu Eres/Brenda Starr and not Herida, just let my fingers do the thinking it seems! I'd agree with you that Herida runs both ways.

I'd also note than on1 can flow just as easily as on2, whilst LA is typically high tension it's possible to play around. For example if you freestyle and start including Cuban elements you would want to be on1 or Power2 in my opinion. So if a song had a Cuban feel (without being strictly Timba) that would also influence me towards 1.

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on2 songs, well ok what examples and why would I see them as such?

La Loteria, Andy Harlow: Why? Well the vocals are much instrumentation as opposed to a driving force, and percussion is definitely in control (that isn't to say there isn't a pleasant, strong melodic component, it simply isn't the 'driver.) Flute comes in later, and flutes always suggest on2 to me, flute phrasing is not constrained as with piano or vocals, and introduces a flow which Olamolam identified with on2 earlier.

For a different tone, Charles Fox/Blue Pachanga. Yes the piano is strong with this one, however I feel that the overall structure is on2. Why? Well firstly it's an instrumental and showcases percussion strongly, strong slaps are there. Next the downbeats are not particularly emphasised. The flute comes in again, see my previous paragraph.

For a third let's take Super Mario's favourite nelson y sus estrellas/llego superman. Here again a strong montuno, but those slaps are coming through loud and proud and percussion is definitely a star here. The horns aren't hitting the 1 particularly emphatically, and the vocals are significant but don't feel like they are in the driver's seat. This raises another point of instrumentation I let get past.

Horns? Horns can definitely make a song feel 'on1' if they are hitting first and fifth beats with real emphasis. If you go back through my previous on1 suggestions you will often see this I believe. Just having significant horns isn't enough though, as with Llego Superman, the horns are not to be missed, but not really driving your foot to hit the one. In my opinion.

--

P.S Just saw your comment as I posted Petteri. I'm not sure I would agree. Timba, especially with it's partial Pop heritage really tends to emphasise the 1 with a passion. Power 2 perhaps, but I think NYon2 structure really wouldn't feel right, at least to me. on1 and Cuban combines incredibly easily, it's a very natural blend to be honest. My Colombian friends, especially my local Cali salsero, puts everything on1 or 3 and he throws everything in from every style when he isn't doing the feet of fire thing.
 
Ron Obvious said:
This song is cumbia, only the ending would be salsa.
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Would you be referring to the section which starts around 1:20 into a song which is pretty much 3 minutes long? :P

This is a dominantly Salsa song with Cumbia influences no doubt. It is however definitely not a Cumbia.

The intro whilst heavily Cumbia-esque has very non Cumbia-esque horns running throughout keeping it squarely as Cumbia influenced Salsa, seeing as salsa dominates the running time. The vocals especially from the backing singers is really not tight and sharp as featured in the best Cumbia either, softening out the harsh Cumbia 'bumps.'
 
Ismael Otero stated in an online interview that the song contains cumbia. I saw that a year or two ago, I can't find the interview anymore :p
 
vit said:
Can we get some more examples that with on2 feeling ?
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I liked the general guidelines wildbill20056 stated earlier-
a couple more examples of those on2 feeling songs:

most anything from ray barretto
Indestructible http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7E0lCqmIPY
Manos Duras http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrk6annGbJk

most anything from palmieri brothers
Charlie Palmieri - Muñeca http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3LIzw0EwSc
piano driven with strong percussion
Eddie Palmieri - Busca Lo Tuyo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y26-qN5wz0

La-33- My Favorite Things http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NRfJvC-fVk
horn driven with strong percussion
 
wildbill20056 said:
This is a dominantly Salsa song with Cumbia influences no doubt. It is however definitely not a Cumbia.
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To me La Vida es un Carnaval sounds really similar to this Cumbia hit.

Armando Hernandez- Loquito Por Ti
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5tqvzVlC98

But it can also be that Celia Cruz's megahit have had influence to later Cumbia music.
 
olamalam said:
With the help of the information above,

Miguel Enriquez - Abre Que Voy dictates on1 because it's very melodic and it has strong piano and horns.
Grupo Latin Vibe - La LLave dictates on1 because piano is the main instrument in this song.
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I disagree, to me the difference between these 2 songs is not 1 or 2, it's the style of dance i.e. Abre Que voy I do some casino moves to, contratiempo if the lady is willing but more likely on1, whereas La Llave I will dance slot style if possible, again on2 if the lady is willing but it's more probable I'll be forced into on1.

Dancing casino on1 is not such a big deal to me - it seems the norm and equally as appropriate as casino on2 - whereas slot style on1 (though often enjoyable for sociable reasons) seems to be missing the point. I expressed some of these sentiments recently in another thread, to much disapproval, but I haven't changed my opinions.
 
wildbill20056 said:
I think with La LLave it's slightly both ways for me. Xylophones always suggest 2 to me, but maybe in this case we could compromise and call it power2 :)
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Mario always plays this song in his classes. Maybe this is why I got so used to dance on1 to this song.

wildbill20056 said:
Also I realise I made a mistake I really meant to refer to Tu Eres/Brenda Starr and not Herida, just let my fingers do the thinking it seems! I'd agree with you that Herida runs both ways.
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Yes, I'm agree with you regarding Tu Eres. Btw, this band is really good!
So from the same band, Peligroso Amor sounded very on2 for me since conga slaps are so strong and vocals are smooth whereas Te Puedo Castigar sounded on1 to me since vocals are sharper, piano is stronger and horns emphasize 1&5.

wildbill20056 said:
I'd also note than on1 can flow just as easily as on2, whilst LA is typically high tension it's possible to play around.
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Yes, I do that sometimes but I feel like I'm breaking LA rule. Also what gives me flowing feeling is that doing a (sloooww) longer middle step with "tuku" accent of conga. "tuku" comes at 4-4& and 8-8&; therefore, if I try to break forward according to "tuku" sound, I feel I'm slightly out of time.

wildbill20056 said:
on2 songs, well ok what examples and why would I see them as such?

La Loteria, Andy Harlow: Why? Well the vocals are much instrumentation as opposed to a driving force, and percussion is definitely in control (that isn't to say there isn't a pleasant, strong melodic component, it simply isn't the 'driver.) Flute comes in later, and flutes always suggest on2 to me, flute phrasing is not constrained as with piano or vocals, and introduces a flow which Olamolam identified with on2 earlier.
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Well, I would struggle to dance on2 to this song since piano is much stronger than congas and 1 is so clear with the help of vocals and strong horns (horns even dominated flute imo). I vote for on1 in this song :)


wildbill20056 said:
For a different tone, Charles Fox/Blue Pachanga. Yes the piano is strong with this one, however I feel that the overall structure is on2. Why? Well firstly it's an instrumental and showcases percussion strongly, strong slaps are there. Next the downbeats are not particularly emphasised. The flute comes in again, see my previous paragraph.
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Hmm this song reminds me of something but what? Yesss!
http://www.youtube.com/user/brownskin818#p/c/FE72D93FCF0C9D1C/2/2YC1jAK_jnY
So please now watch the video with special attention between 3:10 and 3:15. I was amazed with Lola's passing her wonderful body movement to CaribSalsera. I watched this part again and again.
Back to song again, yes this is definitely on2. Flute is in front of everything and also congas are still strong enough which makes it easy to follow.

wildbill20056 said:
For a third let's take Super Mario's favourite nelson y sus estrellas/llego superman. Here again a strong montuno, but those slaps are coming through loud and proud and percussion is definitely a star here. The horns aren't hitting the 1 particularly emphatically, and the vocals are significant but don't feel like they are in the driver's seat. This raises another point of instrumentation I let get past.
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Agreed for the same reason.
 
DJ Yuca said:
Abre Que voy I do some casino moves to, contratiempo if the lady is willing but more likely on1
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I see what you mean but please note that I don't have casino moves in my repertoire and I'm trying to keep it casino free :)

DJ Yuca said:
whereas La Llave I will dance slot style if possible, again on2 if the lady is willing but it's more probable I'll be forced into on1.
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Forced by the song or lady? if song, no disagreement here.

Please answer my question in my second post :)
 
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