2-3 vs 3-2 Clave

M

mikekhad

Hi,

I am having a real hard time differentiating between 2-3 vs 3-2 clave when listening to salsa music.

Does anyone have similar problems? I am looking for a song that is 3-2 clave as I seem to thing everything is 2-3...

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Mike
 
It's funny you should post this thread at this time, I had a similar problem (to a lesser extent), I found my own method of solving it which I am happy to share with you.

When I started salsa dancing and listening to salsa music I soon discovered the concept of clave, and as an amateur percussionist of a number of years I could hear the clave in most tunes. But other tunes I was less sure if not downright confused, however I wasn't too bothered. Then earlier this year I decided to study Afro Cuban percussion (i.e. the rhythms on salsa tunes) and I discovered that certain instructors (including certain instructors who have been playing since the mambo era and are considered greats of Latin percussion) seem to say that, pretty much from day 1, percussionists should base their patterns around the clave. Result - I had to learn to identify clave better.

So how did I improve my clave reading skills?

Put a salsa CD on, anything really (well not reggaeton or salsaton as the clave may be overshadowed by the hip hop influenced beats, and avoid merengues, cha cha, bolero, bomba, plena etc - they might have a clave but stick to salsa.) For each tune, clap the clave along with it. Some tunes the clave is actually very audible, in which case still clap so you can hear how it impacts on the music. For most tracks the clave is implied which is why you have to learn to identify it.

So, the tune is playing and you're not sure if it's 2-3 or 3-2. Just try one of the 2 and stick to it, and memorise which one you're trying.

As an example: you're confused but you think it's 2-3, so you clap 2-3 along with the tune. Now, after a minute you start having doubts, so change to 3-2 and clap along, but remember you started off with 2-3. How does it sound now? Eventually you might realise 3-2 is definitely wrong, so therefore it must be 2-3. Or you might realise 3-2 is definitely right, obviously it depends on the tune. Now here's the trick - stop the track and replay it from the top (that's musicians' slang for 'from the beginning') with you clapping the clave that you think you've identified. Clap it all the way through - listen to how it fits with the tune.

Still not 100%? Try clapping the opposite clave, from the top right to the end, eventually you will hear that one is definitely clashing with the music, therefore the other one is right. And clap the one that is definitely right, all the way through the track as you realise how the tune fits with the clave. Still not sure? Just choose the one you think and clap all the way through, then try the other one - after a while one of them will definitely sound wrong.

But please be sure you know exactly how a clave should sound - a major part of identifying clave is knowing that the 3 side starts on the 1 beat whilst the 2 side starts on the 2nd beat.

Also, be aware of the difference between rumba and son clave - most US salsa uses son clave but some uses rumba, and a lot of timba uses rumba clave. And some tunes actually switch from son to rumba. As I say, if you're using US salsa it will very probably use son clave.

Also be aware of clave change - a misnomer: the clave stays the same but the rest of the tune misses 4 beats so the song goes from 2-3 to 3-2 or vice versa.

When I was learning I considered going on this forum and asking people to check my clave identification skills or to identify the clave for me, but I honestly think you are better working it out for yourself.

To recap, stick to one song all the way through and keep going trying a clave, then try the other until one sounds wrong, then clap with the one that must be right, and hear how the band fit with the clave.

Even now on certain tricky tunes I can spend ages working out the clave, generally speaking I can get the clave of most tunes quickly and so can anyone.
 
That's also what I usually do. Another trick, if you are familiar with timbales at all, is to listen to what they are doing. While the congas play a straight tumbao (which probably "should" reflect clave but doesn't always) the timbales practically depend on it. In general I tend to agree with DJ Yuca, clapping out the clave is the best way to go; however, if you're a timbalero or at least recognize the timbale patterns, this will help you to hear the clave as well.
 
Clave examples

mikekhad said:
Hi,

I am having a real hard time differentiating between 2-3 vs 3-2 clave when listening to salsa music.

Does anyone have similar problems? I am looking for a song that is 3-2 clave as I seem to thing everything is 2-3...

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Mike
Click to expand...

Hi, Some practical examples:

Rumba Clave 2-3 : Maria, Maria by Carlos Santana, the Salsa Version.

Son Clave 3-2: La Salsa Nunca Se Acaba by Susie Hansan

Son Clave 2-3 - "Abre Que Voy" by Miguel Enriquez. This one is quite tricky - it sounds like Clave 3-2 at the beginning, but later you realize it's actually 3-2. You can see this demonstrated in an instructional timing video I compiled for this song here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN_u2BVc9u0

There are some even more interesting examples - that switch clave direction throughout the song.
 
Another way is to focus on beat 1 and 5 of the dancer's count. (These are both beat 1 of the musicians' count). If the vocals or horns hit beat 1 then that measure is almost certainly a 2-side. If they are half a beat before beat 1 then that measure is very likely a 3-side.

Then, listen to the 2&. If horns, vox or any percussion hit this beat then it's very likely a 3-side.
 
Great info. I also tend to identify almost everything as 2-3 son clave unless I can really hear the clave being played.

Implied clave.., that's when it gets tricky.

Does anyone have an example with an implied 3-2 son clave?
 
Probably about 30% of salsa tunes! Bear in mind, a lot of tunes have the clave implied but then at some point there will be a little section where the clave is actually played - which is very useful if you want to know if you've identified it correctly. Also highly common are tunes where the clave is implied and never played, random examples:

Ernie - SERA (1st 20 seconds is 2-3, I had to play this tune about 5 times to be sure, it is definitely a tricky example)

Wille Rosario - Lluvia (every time I go out I hear the Eddie Santiago version, play this DJs please, or better still employ me and I'll play it)

Frankie Ruiz - Para Darte Fuego, La Rueda, Puerto Rico

I might find some more, if necessary and if I have some time later . . .
 
Thanks - Great advise

Thanks Dj Yuca,

This is great advise and I have already tried using it... I guess the problem I am facing now, is that about 40% of the songs that I listen to I cannot hear the Clave at all. Nevertheless I keep trying as good timing is as important as good technique and movement.

Again thanks for the great info.

Mike
Toronto, Canada

DJ Yuca said:
It's funny you should post this thread at this time, I had a similar problem (to a lesser extent), I found my own method of solving it which I am happy to share with you.

When I started salsa dancing and listening to salsa music I soon discovered the concept of clave, and as an amateur percussionist of a number of years I could hear the clave in most tunes. But other tunes I was less sure if not downright confused, however I wasn't too bothered. Then earlier this year I decided to study Afro Cuban percussion (i.e. the rhythms on salsa tunes) and I discovered that certain instructors (including certain instructors who have been playing since the mambo era and are considered greats of Latin percussion) seem to say that, pretty much from day 1, percussionists should base their patterns around the clave. Result - I had to learn to identify clave better.

So how did I improve my clave reading skills?

Put a salsa CD on, anything really (well not reggaeton or salsaton as the clave may be overshadowed by the hip hop influenced beats, and avoid merengues, cha cha, bolero, bomba, plena etc - they might have a clave but stick to salsa.) For each tune, clap the clave along with it. Some tunes the clave is actually very audible, in which case still clap so you can hear how it impacts on the music. For most tracks the clave is implied which is why you have to learn to identify it.

So, the tune is playing and you're not sure if it's 2-3 or 3-2. Just try one of the 2 and stick to it, and memorise which one you're trying.

As an example: you're confused but you think it's 2-3, so you clap 2-3 along with the tune. Now, after a minute you start having doubts, so change to 3-2 and clap along, but remember you started off with 2-3. How does it sound now? Eventually you might realise 3-2 is definitely wrong, so therefore it must be 2-3. Or you might realise 3-2 is definitely right, obviously it depends on the tune. Now here's the trick - stop the track and replay it from the top (that's musicians' slang for 'from the beginning') with you clapping the clave that you think you've identified. Clap it all the way through - listen to how it fits with the tune.

Still not 100%? Try clapping the opposite clave, from the top right to the end, eventually you will hear that one is definitely clashing with the music, therefore the other one is right. And clap the one that is definitely right, all the way through the track as you realise how the tune fits with the clave. Still not sure? Just choose the one you think and clap all the way through, then try the other one - after a while one of them will definitely sound wrong.

But please be sure you know exactly how a clave should sound - a major part of identifying clave is knowing that the 3 side starts on the 1 beat whilst the 2 side starts on the 2nd beat.

Also, be aware of the difference between rumba and son clave - most US salsa uses son clave but some uses rumba, and a lot of timba uses rumba clave. And some tunes actually switch from son to rumba. As I say, if you're using US salsa it will very probably use son clave.

Also be aware of clave change - a misnomer: the clave stays the same but the rest of the tune misses 4 beats so the song goes from 2-3 to 3-2 or vice versa.

When I was learning I considered going on this forum and asking people to check my clave identification skills or to identify the clave for me, but I honestly think you are better working it out for yourself.

To recap, stick to one song all the way through and keep going trying a clave, then try the other until one sounds wrong, then clap with the one that must be right, and hear how the band fit with the clave.

Even now on certain tricky tunes I can spend ages working out the clave, generally speaking I can get the clave of most tunes quickly and so can anyone.
Click to expand...
 
I am usually pretty good at identifying the clave but Mi Libertad by Jerry Rivera has stumped me! Initially I thought it was a 3-2 clave but then I also listened to the song again and clapped the 2-3 clave and it still worked. Now I am more convinced that it is a 2-3 clave just purely based on the accents of the other instruments. What do you guys think?
 
cristinella26 said:
I am usually pretty good at identifying the clave but Mi Libertad by Jerry Rivera has stumped me! Initially I thought it was a 3-2 clave but then I also listened to the song again and clapped the 2-3 clave and it still worked. Now I am more convinced that it is a 2-3 clave just purely based on the accents of the other instruments. What do you guys think?
Click to expand...
I believe it is 2 :3 clave

The conga rhythm is in 2:3, why did you think it was 3:2 ?
 
cristinella26 said:
I am usually pretty good at identifying the clave but Mi Libertad by Jerry Rivera has stumped me! Initially I thought it was a 3-2 clave but then I also listened to the song again and clapped the 2-3 clave and it still worked. Now I am more convinced that it is a 2-3 clave just purely based on the accents of the other instruments. What do you guys think?
Click to expand...

I believe you're right. The rapper doing his thing had me feeling the clave moreso on the 3 side. When Jerry pops in with his vocals, I feel it more naturally on the 2.

Either you have what's called Clave Counterpoint taking place or there's something 'up' with this song overall rhythmically.

BTW-To Matty.... the drum pattern, as far as I know, doesn't dictate in which direction the clave goes. It's the other way around.
 
I always thought Tony Vega's "Ella" ( not to be confused with his big hit "Ella Es" ) got lost somewhere in the clave bermuda triangle. Nice tune but not real strong on the clave. Feels like it's trying to be 3/2 but not quite getting there.

 
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