I_love_salsa
Banned
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How can I improve my dancing?
- Thread starter I_love_salsa
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take some privates or some specialized workshops..
I have troubles with spinning.. I did a few workshop spinning (for men AND for ladies) and practice a few times a day in front of a mirror... I'm still not great.. but I notice the improvements..
Same with styling... and while partnering.. just try it... be like nike.. just do it
... it will feel weird at first but you'll get there...
good luck
I have troubles with spinning.. I did a few workshop spinning (for men AND for ladies) and practice a few times a day in front of a mirror... I'm still not great.. but I notice the improvements..
Same with styling... and while partnering.. just try it... be like nike.. just do it
... it will feel weird at first but you'll get there...good luck
Summarizing, you've found four different areas where you want to improve: posture, spinning, lady styling and interpretation of music. Let's start with the last one since this intertwines with what you've written here:
I'm a bit astonished about this comment that you got since for you as a lady, you usually don't need to worry about patterns. Typically this is in my experience more an issue for the leads who might end up as 'pattern monkey' instead of dancing to the music. So was the person maybe refererring to the point that you were anticipating patterns that you learned from class?
I don't think that you're 'really uncreative' but that so far you haven't had a chance to discover your own creativity and use it. And I'm speaking here from the experience that I never felt myself to be creative until I got more into dancing and expressing the music through my movement.
First, if I got by the comments from our latest shine compilation here, then isolation exercises, especially if done regularly, will help you a lot with your dancing. They will help you learn to move parts of your body in ways that you've never moved them before as well making it look smooth. The choreographies that you're learning additionally are used to show you various ways of combining those isolations together into single movements as well as matching them to the music (from the point of the instructor). But those choreographies should only be taken as a start for how you can combine the movements and not something that you literally copy into your dancing. Rather look for those parts that you like and that you feel to match your style of dancing and your personality and use them as a basis to develop your own styling.
Hm, not sure if I'm really understanding your point here. But it seems to me that you're concerned about the look and the impression that you give when adding styling. In this case I would suggest to do an exercise similar to our shine compilations, which you also might want to consider joining the next time. Put on some salsa music that you like and tape yourself dancing solo to it trying out various styling movements. Then watch the clips of you dancing to see what movement you like and what movement doesn't fit to you. There's in my opinion nothing better then watching yourself on video solo dancing to see what impression you give.
So rather then trying out the choreographies that you've learned in class, use this opportunity at home to develop your own styling and find the moves that fit you and your personality when dancing. Because when you're really moving to the music with all your heart, you'll not only give the impression of enjoying the dance, but will also look beautiful to your dance partner compared to just following a choreography that you once learned and that neither fits the music nor your own dancing.
Not sure if it's still available but I think the DVD from Magna Gopal on spinning is excellent and I think it's been highly recommended in the 'Member Reviews' section.
P.S.: Since I've noticed that you're from germany, any chance to see you at the Berlin congress?
Nice post, Chrisk
Where I dance they have every sunday a class with a different topic, today shines, tommorow spinning, next week body isolation, week after that styling in partnering, etc etc etc... it is open for everybody to participate (also for non-members) at 10 euro a class..
I don't know if they have that where you live but I could recommend that type of workshops...
we also have bootcamps (whole day on one subject), I did a musicalty bootcamp in Den Haag with Morrie from Salsaventura, he did a in depth explanation of how salsa is build up in parts and taught us how we could predict the breaks etc... really helpfull... also did a bootcamp in Hoofddorp with styling with Brian & Mechteld from Salsaddiction (if I'm correct), a whole day on bodyisolation and bodymovement...
those two bootcamp helped me more on those subjects than all the classes I took..
Where I dance they have every sunday a class with a different topic, today shines, tommorow spinning, next week body isolation, week after that styling in partnering, etc etc etc... it is open for everybody to participate (also for non-members) at 10 euro a class..
I don't know if they have that where you live but I could recommend that type of workshops...
we also have bootcamps (whole day on one subject), I did a musicalty bootcamp in Den Haag with Morrie from Salsaventura, he did a in depth explanation of how salsa is build up in parts and taught us how we could predict the breaks etc... really helpfull... also did a bootcamp in Hoofddorp with styling with Brian & Mechteld from Salsaddiction (if I'm correct), a whole day on bodyisolation and bodymovement...
those two bootcamp helped me more on those subjects than all the classes I took..
How very odd the patterns comment - for a moment I did a double take and thought you were a lead!
Only thing I can imagine is that perhaps they like to play with the music and actually 'dance' rather than just lead patterns themself and so found they were unable to have that sort of dance with you. If they are good enough then they should have been kind enough to be gracious with you and dance within your limitations anyway. Why not just ask him what he meant?
Don't be so hard on yourself because one year isn't very long. Even if you've been dancing quite a bit each week it still depends on the environment you're dancing in.
My advice would be to forget styling whilst dancing and just concentrate on getting the basics right. Only once you're free of having to think about that will you be relaxed enough to have fun with the music. Keep taking styling classes and eventually little bits will rub off on your dancing when you're ready.
First of all, cudos for having the ambition to improve your own dancing!
I'll give my two cents on the lady styling since that's something I used to really struggle with (and somewhat still do). I took lady styling classes but never used the material. Partly because I never remembered the choreography taught and secondly because I was very, very shy when dancing, I didn't feel comfortable with drawing attention to myself doing styling that I thought people would think looked sloppy or "wrong". :roll:
But I got the tip from someone to pick out one movement, either from the lady styling class or from someone I saw in the social scene, and try to interpret or "steal" that specific move. I remember the first move I worked on was doing arm styling in a copa, a move I saw one of my instructors doing on the social dance floor. The first bunch of times I did it I felt like a complete idiot! But after a while it started feeling more comfortable. One by one I incorporated different styling moves and today I have a repertoire that I feel comfortable with using and I feel a lot more confident when trying to incorporate a new move.
And not once did I get any negative comments but only encouragement and positive response!
Just have fun trying to find your own repertoire of styling moves that you feel comfortable doing!
I feel relieved now.
Sounds good and I think I can do that!
Actually, come to think of it I've also never seen people here watch other dancers and make nasty remarks. Oh well, and even if some did, I guess, I can live with it, too. If I practice, one day I'll be good.
Thank you for encouragement.
Trust me, the first time I tried doing a body roll on the social dance floor I thought everyone was gonna stop what they were doing, point and laugh. :shock: But of course they didn't - it's mostly a mental threshold we both need to conquer. To some it comes naturally to just try everything they've seen in lady styling class - to me...not so much :roll:
I see where your sentiment is coming from, doing a sexy move that doesn't feel natural in front of someone you might not know very well, or at all, is really awkward. But if you dance with someone you are at least acquainted with it won't be too painful and one day you'll find yourself doing that specific move on instinct. You just have to figure out a way to incorporate moves in the least excruatiating way for you
You can do it! Report back on your progress
azzey
Son Montuno
Most dancers (including professionals) benefit most by working on improving fundamentals; basic steps, timing, weight transfer etc as they are 99% of what the dance is made up of.
Balance during spins, posture, styling and basic body movement are all connected. They're all about where your body weight is during the dance.
The secret to good styling is that much of what your human eye sees as style is really about your body being in a balanced position, and having natural motion (often called contra-body motion), by correct transfer of weight from one foot to the other while doing your basic steps throughout the dance.
Looking like a good dancer is all about moving the body to the right place at the right time. The arms are an extension of whole body movement (the body moves first and the arms follow) and the arms are in a position to balance your body (like any activity such as walking or playing tennis).
So the best way to improve your fundamentals is to practice all your basic steps slowly (including the ones you use during the leaders moves - e.g. CBL, right turn etc) focusing on where your body weight is and let your body tell you where your arms should be. Look in a mirror or video yourself and work out what looks natural and what doesn't.
The rest of your body also moves :- When you step your hip moves, so does your rib cage, shoulders and arms. You don't need to try to do it, it happens naturally. Just check it looks right and maybe emphasise it a little or make it more subtle.
Your hands obviously have to be available to the leader during moves (they have to be at the right place at the right time) and this dictates along with balance the position that they should be in. If you're not sure look at what professional dancers do.
When they're not being used by the leader you need to use your arms for balance during turns and spins.
All the above is termed as 'functional styling' as it has a purpose.
Learn this first and then layer additional 'free styling' with hand, arm or body movements in the little free moments you have during the dance.
Figure 8 hip movements, rib cage and shoulder rolls are good options for Cuban salsa and NY salsa but will likely look odd if done all the time in LA style, so check what your favourite dancers do before expending a lot of energy learning something you may never use.
Here's some posts with further information to help you:
Adding style to basic dance steps
Stuck in style
How to fit things to music/musicality
What's your approach to styling?
Most Important Aspects of Dancing?
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Hi Chris, thanks for your answer!
You're welcome!
I think he's used to having awesome dancers who know how to dance really well to the music and also have great styling. And now he's got me...[...]
First, I still think that his comment doesn't make any sense with you as follower. Second and maybe more important, I think that even with beginners you can dance well to the music and have a lot of fun without any styling at all. Having a nice dance depends in my opinion much more on the connection to my dance partner and picking/leading moves that match the music and the level of my dance partner then the styling that she's going to add. If I keep the dancing on a level that my partner can comfortably follow without any or only slight problems, then I would consider it dancing 'really well to the music'. Her styling can make it more beautiful, but it's not an essential. It's for me rather like the nice vase for a set of wonderful flowers then the flowers being wonderful.
Hm, that's a good question that I haven't yet thought about. But looking back, I think I started to notice and develop this creativity during our first two shine compilations. When I had joined the first compilation, I rather stuck to the all the shines and the choreographies in which I had learned them. But I wasn't already happy with the result and after reviewing it, I noticed how my movement and the music didn't match the way I liked it. So when we started the second compilation, I knew that I had to look for other shines from video clips or come up with ideas of my own to match the music much better then before. And although I still didn't look in the resulting clip in the way I wanted to or had imagined, I was much happier about my general appearance.
So after I had seen that I can come up with new moves to match the music the way I feel it, I started to work more on this issue. So next to working on my bodymovement (via isolations), I decided to regularly dance solo to the music trying out various movements to fit the music. At the same time I did and still do record myself regularly and watch the resulting clips to see what I look like as well as find out which movement looks good and which I shouldn't use again.
Yes, we've had four shines compilations before. The first one was started by our Brownskin818 in the thread SF Shines Compilation/Routine Idea?. Some time later she also coordindated the second compilation which can be found under the title SF Shines Compilation Part 2. Then, for the third compilation, Brownskin818 got us to try a slightly different concept with girls vs. boys in the thread SF Shines Compilation #3 (GvG). Then she decided to refrain from being the coordinator and SalsaGipsy took the post over which lead to the fourth and currently last compilation, which was coordinated in the thread SF Shines Compilation 4.0 - ideas and participants. The resulting clips can be found in the thread SF Shines Compilation 4.0 - resulting clips. Currently it's unknown when we're going to start the next one, but if you keep an eye on this section, you shouldn't miss it.
Ok. I also take it that it just takes a lot of time, practice and patience until you can really incorporate this stuff into your dancing? I'm seriously frustrated regarding this styling thing. I've been taking ladies styling classes for 9 months now and my dancing is still as boring as ever and I feel just as insecure as before.
Yes, although as lead my styling is more restricted to shines then for your ladies. It takes quite a bit of practice and dedication to really get where you want to. But seeing how far I already got when I started out, I can attest that it's worth it. (Just watch my first and last shine compilatons appearance and you'll hopefully notice the difference as well.) And it helps a lot of if as Lilith recommended you focus on one movement after another then trying to work on multiple at once.
Well, I would say the 'good momemt' is exactly the moment where you feel the music calling for that movement as it will fit nicely, ie. a hit in the music. I could imagine something like a chest pop or similiar to a hit in the music like at about 0:40 in 'Valio la pena' from Marc Anthony. But again that's how I feel the music and how I feel this movement would match it. It can be totally different for you, so but on different salsa tunes and try out the chest pop at various moments to see where it matches the music like I described it.
Absolutely, there's such a difference between the way you look on the resulting and the way you suppose you appear to others. But then again you can see the issues that you want to work as well as how much your work has payed off.
I_love_salsa,
It's great that you are working on the external things but don't forget about the internal things as well, like how you feel when certain music plays. If how the music affects you is a little too much to think about at this point then you could focus on how certain partners make you feel about yourself. If I were you I'd try and tap into that resource because it can really take you to some nice places during a dance.
Also I noticed that there were a lot of don'ts and can'ts in your initial post. Perhaps a suggestion could be to tackle each of those one by one so that the goal of becoming proficient in those things is not too overwhelming. Take being creative for instance. Have you ever thought of putting on some music and just having a little fun with some friends or by yourself. It might surprise you how hard it is to do that (let go that is) even when there is no pressure to get things right. I only bring this up because I think who we are is as big a part of dancing as all the technicals.
The short of it.
My personal feeling is that you should try to keep a balance between the external and internal, and of course, consider this as a great opportunity to get in touch with yourself as well. Who is I_love_salsa when she dances? A slightly different angle and something else to think about in addition to the great advice you've got already.
It's great that you are working on the external things but don't forget about the internal things as well, like how you feel when certain music plays. If how the music affects you is a little too much to think about at this point then you could focus on how certain partners make you feel about yourself. If I were you I'd try and tap into that resource because it can really take you to some nice places during a dance.
Also I noticed that there were a lot of don'ts and can'ts in your initial post. Perhaps a suggestion could be to tackle each of those one by one so that the goal of becoming proficient in those things is not too overwhelming. Take being creative for instance. Have you ever thought of putting on some music and just having a little fun with some friends or by yourself. It might surprise you how hard it is to do that (let go that is) even when there is no pressure to get things right. I only bring this up because I think who we are is as big a part of dancing as all the technicals.
The short of it.
My personal feeling is that you should try to keep a balance between the external and internal, and of course, consider this as a great opportunity to get in touch with yourself as well. Who is I_love_salsa when she dances? A slightly different angle and something else to think about in addition to the great advice you've got already.
Ask 100 leaders which they prefer: a girl who has a great-looking repertoire of styling moves but uses them so liberally that she forgets to follow the lead, or a girl who just boringly follows every subtle lead she's given? I'd say 98 will say they prefer the latter (and the remaining 2 will say "depends on how cute she is"I'm afraid he thinks I'm a boring dancer and well, compared with the girls he usually dances with I am...
). The advanced followers you see guys queuing up to dance for are popular not because of their beautiful styling but because they are good FOLLOWERS - it's their frame, tension, timing, responsiveness, balance, etc., which leaders love - the styling is icing on the cake.Azzey's advice re. functional styling is good. You've been taught to raise your left arm coming out of a CBL turn to make sure the arm doesn't get trapped under the leader's arm? When you do this you want to look graceful and not like a child trying to get the attention of the teacher in the classroom. And now that your arm is up, you might want to think about how to bring it down to the leaders shoulder gracefully too - all without elbowing the guy in the process. That's what functional styling is about. Look at how advanced girls do it, or watch YouTube clips of your favourite followers. Start with just one or two things like these first to get comfortable with the idea of adding styling. I find learning from what I see on the dancefloor far more useful than classes when it comes to styling. Once you are comfortable with functional styling and also as you improve as a follower, you will start seeing more and more windows of opportunity where you can insert subtle non-functional styling to spice up your dance - a few beats when there's no lead from the leader, or moves that naturally lead to stylisable response (e.g., tummy check into body roll or chest pop). Again, watching good dancers give you ideas (and you can choose and try only the moves YOU like the look of - no need to do things you feel are "not really you"), but make sure that your styling fits within those windows and that you can get back to following in time. Remember, "girls who are too busy with styling to follow the lead" are always near the top of leaders' pet peeves list.
sweavo
Changui
Generally the nasty remarks only come from people who feel threatened. If people are bitching about you it most likely means you are doing something particularly well!
One of the reasons styling can feel silly is because it's artificial. The irony is that if you feel silly it can make you hesitant, then the movement doesn't quite work and you feel sillier. If you can feel like you mean it then it doesn't feel silly. A couple of ways to get that feeling:
1) Watch and enjoy others dancing. Imitate only the elements that actually make you go "yeah!" inside when you see them.
2) Dance "in character". Say to yourself "ok this song I will dance like a cuban peasant girl from the 1940s" or "ok this song I am ginger rogers" or "this song I am the ultimate diva" etc. Using an image like that can change the whole way you feel about movement. I don't mean to say do this on every dance, but it's a fun exercise and by inhabiting these other characters you can discover movements that feel good and you can incorporate into your regular self.
3) Create a purpose for each movement. Are you giving, taking, pushing away, stabbing, swooping, skimming water, moving through jelly, hitting a wall, exploding? When watching others, allow yourself to interpret what you see and attach these kind of tags. Then you will start to have a language in your mind for how you want a movement to look and feel.
When styling comes from an internal place, it's much more likely to be believed by you. If it's believed by you then it's believed by the person watching too. Enjoy your journey!
/edit: I meant to say that if both partners are doing (3) then you can actually end up with a dialog where the partners offer gestures and respond. One of my favourite follows does that and we end up playacting whole scenarios. I might turn my back on her in a small shine, and she'll jokingly interpret that as an insult, then she'll try to make it hard for me to pick her up into partnerwork by turning her back at a key moment, etc. All coming out of the idea that your movements are messages.
azzey
Son Montuno
Edie's World Famous Spins DVD is probably a bit dated now. She recently made a new spins DVD with Jazzy which is available from her web site dancefreak dot com, which probably would be a better buy, although I haven't seen it myself. Here's a quote about the DVD "After the basics are locked down, spin variations such as style, solo spins, technique and partner work applications are also demonstrated."
Magna spins DVD would be a good alternative. Magna has excellent spin technique and would be very useful to watch or study from.
You might want to take a look at this thread also for lots of free tips:
Spin Tips?
The most important thing to remember about spins is to turn your body as one unit. How you prep(are) with the feet/body is also important. Spin styling is mostly functional as it helps you balance, and obviously the more balanced you are before, during and when you come out of spins the easier it is to spin well.
azzey
Son Montuno
Like Lilith said, it's possible to copy elements of styling from dancers that you watch. Just make sure you're not copying other peoples bad habits. There are now a huge range of quality social dance and workshop videos of professional LA and NY style dancers on YouTube to watch. So you could learn much functional and aesthetic styling from dancers such as Liz Lira, Magna and Edie the Salsa Freak.
If you're looking for a more instructional approach, Liz Lira has a selection of styling DVDs from her private lesson series on her web site which might fullfill what you're looking for.
These include:
- "Essential tools and foundations for every dancer"
- "Ladies styling salsa class"
- "Discover and create your own style"
- "Becoming a sophisticated and polished dancer"
There's a clip of one of her DVDs on her YouTube account.
Maybe Barrefly, UnlikelySalsero or someone else that has seen the videos can comment on their content?
If you're looking for a more instructional approach, Liz Lira has a selection of styling DVDs from her private lesson series on her web site which might fullfill what you're looking for.
These include:
- "Essential tools and foundations for every dancer"
- "Ladies styling salsa class"
- "Discover and create your own style"
- "Becoming a sophisticated and polished dancer"
There's a clip of one of her DVDs on her YouTube account.
Maybe Barrefly, UnlikelySalsero or someone else that has seen the videos can comment on their content?
azzey
Son Montuno
Ask 100 leaders which they prefer: a girl who has a great-looking repertoire of styling moves but uses them so liberally that she forgets to follow the lead, or a girl who just boringly follows every subtle lead she's given? I'd say 98 will say they prefer the latter (and the remaining 2 will say "depends on how cute she is"
Too true.
Also when the lead has your hands much of the arm styling is dependent on how he leads you. e.g. If he's an LA or NY style lead.Yes, this. I_love_salsa: Even a small difference in timing or location of body weight can make a huge difference in how smoothly a dancer follows. Plus if you get the fundamentals right you will start to look a lot more stylish anyway without doing any additional body movement or hand waving.
What MacMoto said. Good post.
I would say though that styling during partnerwork (when you're connected to the guy) needs to be on time so it doesn't disturb the lead. Any movement of body weight will be felt by the leader, so make sure you're going with the flow, not against the flow.
You can do whatever you want however during shines as long as you're ready on the correct foot and timing when I pick you up again. This is often a problem with On2 dancers, who do shines on 2 and then then aren't on my timing (on 1) when they come back into partnerwork. Annoying. I just send them back into the basic again and don't cross-body them until they're on time. :evil:
azzey
Son Montuno
I taped myself yesterday doing some basics and a bit of freestyle and well, I think my basics need more improvement than I thought...
The three most important things to work on are:
1) connection with the floor (how you do all your basic steps), which is really all about moving your body anyway.
2) connection with your partner (tension etc).
3) connection with the music (timing, rhythm, musicality).
What I'm saying is that if you work on the fundamentals you will look more stylish and pretty. It's just that you're not yet able to see that the reason professional dancers look so good is because they're doing the basics really really well.
Most benefit will be found in this order:
- Improving timing of basic steps.
- Improving quality of basic steps, particularly weight transfer and position of steps.
This thread may help or take a private lesson with a good instructor. How do you count to get a smooth basic step?
- Connection with your partner (following with your body wherever he leads your hands). For this you need to press into his hands (not grip them). This will engage the muscles in the arm, shoulder and back naturally.
A good connection will enable you to smoothly follow an instructor or advanced dancer and should help you realise where your hands, arms and the rest of your body should be during the moves of a dance. Video yourself dancing with a partner and compare to professionals.
If you maintain a good connection with your leader, with lots of practice dancing with an advanced dancer you will gain their habits, both good and bad.
I don't like dancing slowly, because I prefer dancing to fast music, but also because I know it requires way more technical precision. When dancing fast, you can cheat a bit, but when dancing slowly you start noticing all your flaws. I guess, there's just no way of getting around practicing slowly if I really want to become better.
Yes, it's that cheating you have to remove.
Hey, what you said about "functional styling" makes sense. That was useful, I never really thought about that.
Thanks so much for putting together this list!
No problemo.