a question for the on2 purists...

This is for those that grew up dancing on 2 and would never dance on 1 even if someone paid them to. I dont want to get into a 30 page debate

When dancing on2, in theory at least, you step on 123 567 just like on1, but with the obvious differences in direction/break. But if you pay close attention, do you actually step on the 1 or on the 8+ ?? I had a rather heated argument with someone who would have me believe that the break between 1 and 2 is longer than the one between 2 and 3...Which in my opinion is wrong, at least from a logical point of view. This would be more similar to dancing on clave (but not quite :S ) who knows.

Now, maybe I do this when I am dancing, but just not 100% concious about it. Maybe not. Or maybe we syncopate our steps once and a while because of the music. But on the most basic level (of advanced dancing), is it so that we constantly step before the 1 ??? Do Eddie Torres and Frankie Martinez teach this way?

I learned on1, but I now dance more on2, all over the world. I have NEVER had a problem leading a girl (to the contrary) or felt that I was behind by a half a beat, I studied music, my timing is great (most of the time ) and I teach on1. The thing is, I never actually took a "beginners" courses on2, so I might have missed out on this one important detail. I learned by observation and by dancing with real on2 dancers, to get the feeling.

Is there an online ressource that might clear this up, and I dont mean that stupid on1 vs on2, which is really not on2 etc video...

thanks for any constructive help,

A

lyndwode said:

This is for those that grew up dancing on 2 and would never dance on 1



When dancing on2, in theory at least, you step on 123 567 just like on1, but with the obvious differences in direction/break.

But if you pay close attention, do you actually step on the 1 or on the 8+ ?? I had a rather heated argument with someone who would have me believe that the break between 1 and 2 is longer than the one between 2 and 3...Which in my opinion is wrong, at least from a logical point of view. This would be more similar to dancing on clave

A

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That would be me ( when there was only Mambo )

First , you are a little confused what the term on " 2 " means... its a music designation stating that you are breaking on the 2 nd beat of each bar . AND.. if you are dancing on " 1" that means you are breaking on "1" .

And music is written ( syncop. apart ) with the same "time " allocation for each and every bar... how you choose to interpret that, is opinion .

The speed of the music, BPM, also may contribute to how the song is performed ,and change literally its interpretation .The best e.g. of this is Bolero ,which was morphed to a greater or lesser extent , into Mambo.

Thanks terence for the quick answer!

I am quite clear on the breaking "on 1" or "on 2" business - I just didn't want to get into a long song and dance about that when my question is about something else

Lets talk from a purely dancers point of view, because (correct me if I'm wrong) the musicians are not breaking on anything, they are playing the music so I would not really call it a "musical" designation"...And in this case the chicken did come before the egg, the music we now dance to was written well before anyone was dancing ET2, right? How did (do) you dance mambo?

But you didn't quite answer my question:

When do you actually step when dancing ET2? Exactly on one, or a bit before it? Are the 6 steps still "quick" quick" "slow" 123 567 ?

The problem arose, when someone was counting out loud, as do many teachers today, in a rhythm that was not "in rythm" 1...23..5...67..1...23..5...67 or "slower" "quick" "slow" "slower" "quick" "slow" if you get what I mean) and explaining that this is also how we should be dancing. In short, claiming that the pause between 3 and 5 is actually shorter than just 4...Sounds confusing, sorry.

lyndwode said:

This is for those that grew up dancing on 2 and would never dance on 1 even if someone paid them to. I dont want to get into a 30 page debate

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There is a long discussion on that here:

http://salsaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6759

BTW, one of my private instructors considered it very important to dance with a SQQ feel (slow being the 1). Still, she (and also other instructors) thought it was very important to pause properly on the 4 and 8.

I think almost all experienced dancers find it irritating to dance with a partner who fails to pause properly, making the dance wishy-washy, so I think stepping on 8& is not really a good option.

Still, several good (some exclusively on2) dancers also insist on providing that SQQ feel (which is hard to grasp logically for me as well).

thanks for the link

lyndwode said:

I am quite clear on the breaking "on 1" or "on 2" business


Lets talk from a purely dancers point of view, because (correct me if I'm wrong) the musicians are not breaking on anything, they are playing the music so I would not really call it a "musical" designation well before anyone was dancing ET2, right?


How did (do) you dance mambo?

When do you actually step when dancing ET2? Exactly on one, or a bit before it? Are the 6 steps still "quick" quick" "slow" 123 567 ?

The problem arose, when someone was counting out loud, as do many teachers today,


.

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Para 1.. from your statement, apparently you do not ( dancing on 1 and breaking on 2 is contradictory.. in dance terms , dancing and breaking. mean essentially the same )

In reality you are using ALL 4 beats in the bar some are just " stationary " but still there none the less.. the accented beat you choose to break on is optional; LA style ( closer to old school mambo ) uses 1.. mambo purists ..2,, and many PR use 3 .

Mambo "style " is larger fwd and back basics, crossover breaks to left and right ,and numerous variations that have not transposed to todays styles, and was, and is taught, with a commencing back break prepped on "1"

para 2 ... when we speak of Music. design. we are applying it from a DANCERS perception ( this is why many musicians do not understand what the H.. we are doing ! )


para 3.. when taking on a specific style ,one has to realise it is "grounded " in a basic concept. The timing of how you move thru the bar , becomes your interpretation. The key here , is the consitency of maintaining the timing and rhythm with appropriate syncops., if and when necessary.

Eddie has essentially copied the basic format, of what was being taught before he was out of school .( Didnt we all ?.. all schools had a basic concept that came from another source )

para 3... Counting out loud can be very distracting.. it can even hinder the exercise . but... identifying the number of steps used in a basic ,accompanied by the rhythm value for each ,is a more complete exercise, and should initially be taught, independantly of played music.

Personally, I find it more effective by asking my group to
" pick up " the timing with me after the above exercise .

lyndwode said:

But if you pay close attention, do you actually step on the 1 or on the 8+ ??

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My attitude is that this step is very free. It doesn't conflict with your follower and its only responsibility is to take your weight in time for your break step. I've seen plenty of very stylish dancers teaching in class, stepping on 8& and calling "1". When I teach I step on 1 call "1" but when social dancing I'll pull this step all over the place according to my mood. Stepping actually on 1 feels a little constrained and restricts the energy/drama you can put into the break step. Also the music often emphasizes the 4 or 8, so I will happily bring this all the way forward to 4 or 8. The break step is key for the partnerwork and for hooking into the tumbao rhythm; the 3/7 is also useful for clearing the lane or moving to a useful position wrt your partner, but the 1/5 is by far the free-est step.

This explains what I mean very well:

Flujo said:

I understand what you are talking about chr.
It's what happens on beat 4 and 8 that gives the deceptive SQQ 'feel'. The 'slow feel' carries over beats 1 and 5 and is still part of the established QQS structure as the On2 count warps the 1 and the 5 (see below). If you are coming from On1 then that could be confusing in regards to the QQS vs SQQ thing. Certainly was for me. If you don't know that Q = 1 beat and S = 2 beats then you 'will' be confused! @hyh - yes, it really is that simple. Perhaps a lot of people aren't taught this in class?

P = the first step on the 1 that settles you into the On2 basic before you adjust the timing slightly
<> = not precise timing - count could be a 1/2 beat behind the actual beat it's referring too.
1____2____3____4____5____6____7____8____1____2 - beats in bar

P____Q____Q____S-------------Q____Q____S--------------Q - On2 (ET2) in relation to QQS

P____2____3____<5>______6____7____<1>______2 - instructors count.
(Thanks Peach)

When instructors count 1 2 3 -- 5 6 7 On2 and stretch out the numbers, the 5 count really lands on the 4 or 4& beat within the bar and the 1 count lands on the 8 or 8& beat.
The foundation is still QQS, it's just shifted in time by 1 beat in reference to On1. If any of the above isn't quite on beat (bad pun - heh) then I look forward to being corrected.

P.S
Sitting at a computer typing out step diagrams. Don't you just love it!
Hmmm. :eyebrow:

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what about when you teach it? I sometimes feel like the real pause on the 4 dissapears...

chr said:

BTW, one of my private instructors considered it very important to dance with a SQQ feel (slow being the 1). Still, she (and also other instructors) thought it was very important to pause properly on the 4 and 8.


Still, several good (some exclusively on2) dancers also insist on providing that SQQ feel (which is hard to grasp logically for me as well)


.

Click to expand...

"Time " allocation is EXACTLY what music and dance is all about.. knowing HOW to use that specific time ( the bar ) to create an expression that fits the piece of music.. in other words.. musicality....

Actually the time allocation for a Slow, is 2 beats .. quicks, 1 each.. hence the 4 beats in the bar.... and it should be counted QQS from the break action . ( Sqq is foxtrot )

Forgot to addd... I teach and dance on 1. 2. and 3

terence said:

Para 1.. from your statement, apparently you do not ( dancing on 1 and breaking on 2 is contradictory.. in dance terms , dancing and breaking. mean essentially the same ).

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This is the long discussion I was trying to avoid, but some people live for it We are all trying to say the same thing, using different words, lets leave it at that!

terence said:

Personally, I find it more effective by asking my group to " pick up " the timing with me after the above exercise .

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I agree, but my "boss" says I am teaching it wrong, because I am not using that instructors talk with the 4& and 8&,
P____2____3____<5>______6____7____<1>______2

which I somewhat dissagree with, at least from an explanation point of view. Imagine trying to do in 10 mins what this forum has taken 6 pages to do...otherwise the students just end up stepping too soon...

I agree, that sometimes, I stretch the beats, but I imagine I do that on one as well. No one brings their feet together anymore in the middle to a full stop...Well, not around here anyways

chr said:

BTW, one of my private instructors considered it very important to dance with a SQQ feel (slow being the 1). Still, she (and also other instructors) thought it was very important to pause properly on the 4 and 8.

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You totally loss me at slow being 1. I guess we have to start at what you mean by Q and S. Generally understanding: Q is one beat and S is two beats. If you arrive on S, you are holding (your weight?) for two beats before arriving on next Q.

So how do you get slow feel "on first beat" in SQQ ? What is happening on 7 through 1 and 1 through 2 ?

lyndwode said:

The problem arose, when someone was counting out loud, as do many teachers today, in a rhythm that was not "in rythm" 1...23..5...67..1...23..5...67 or "slower" "quick" "slow" "slower" "quick" "slow" if you get what I mean)

Click to expand...

That's not right way to count music's rhythm, no matter whether on1, on2 or on3. Anyone doing Oneeeee, two, three either stretching oneee over 1& (but then correct way to count that will be 1&, 2, 3....) or will simply counting off time. For those that count Oneeeeeeeeee, two, three.. ask them to count 1&,2&,3&...... Then see if they can still count oneee&, 2&, 3&...

I also see some people counting 1..2..3.....5..6..7 They accent 2 and 6 by putting heavy emphasis on those counts.

lyndwode said:

But if you pay close attention, do you actually step on the 1 or on the 8+ ??

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Step on 1. Not on 8+. Technically you are not on time if you arrive on 8& instead of 1.

lyndwode said:

This is the long discussion I was trying to avoid,


Imagine trying to do in 10 mins what this forum has taken 6 pages to do...otherwise the students just end up stepping too soon...

Click to expand...

Concise explanations sometimes are not best served by brevity.

Also, timing / rhythm , is better demonstrated than verbal explanations.

The mechanics of motion, have a very large impact on HOW and WHEN we arrive at a specific time in the passage .

lyndwode said:

Now, maybe I do this when I am dancing, but just not 100% concious about it. Maybe not. Or maybe we syncopate our steps once and a while because of the music. But on the most basic level (of advanced dancing), is it so that we constantly step before the 1 ??? Do Eddie Torres and Frankie Martinez teach this way?

Click to expand...

Lyndwode,

The best answer to your question so far was from Sweavo, IMHO. The separation between the 8 and 1 beat, as well as the 4 and 5 beat is very liberally interpreted, depending on the music. If you watch most on2 dancers, they use both the 8& and the 1. Infact, some even use the 8, since they came from the 234 678 power 2 dancing culture eg Nelson Flores, Seaon Styling. What you could do is simply watch Eddie Torres, Frankie Martinez, J Matos, etc dance on youtube, and then draw your own conclusions . And when you realize that the better you get at it, you take more liberties, the discussion becomes a moot point .

So for teaching purposes, I think you should start with stepping on 123, 567 precisely. It is hard enough for many to get that right, without you nuancing it with the 8& 23 4& 67 frankly... lol.

Offbeat said:

You totally loss me at slow being 1. I guess we have to start at what you mean by Q and S. Generally understanding: Q is one beat and S is two beats. If you arrive on S, you are holding (your weight?) for two beats before arriving on next Q.

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I am lost as well. Logic-wise, at least. However it has something to do with the feel which is hard to quantify. Still it is an observable phenomenon.

Offbeat said:

Step on 1. Not on 8+. Technically you are not on time if you arrive on 8& instead of 1.

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Yes I agree completely. Moreover, it is not only a purely technical issue. If you soften the pause (on 4 and 8 ), you take out the juice... It feels wrong.

Salsamakossa said:

The separation between the 8 and 1 beat, as well as the 4 and 5 beat is very liberally interpreted, depending on the music. If you watch most on2 dancers, they use both the 8& and the 1.

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I got busted by instructors for doing exactly that. Even those who insist on the SQQ feel want to have proper pause on 4 and 8. (Of course, if you do that on purpose, making an effect to accent something, that's different. But it is not the baseline.)

Chr,

I have to say that I am no authority on this subject, but personally, my aim when dancing, is to make the dance smooth. In wanting to do that, I take out the pause, even when dancing on1. I use the 8& or the 1 depending on the music feel or the turn pattern. And if an instructor, does not like it, then so be it. Now, if the song feels jerky and I want to get into that groove, then I might consider pausing more... I have watched them all dance - Eddie Torres, Frankie Martinez, Juan Matos, Vitico Magia, Nelson Flores, Thomas Guerero, Milton Cobo, etc, and the key is about feel, and not some set rule, that some guy in class tries to stress, as I am sure you agree...

chr said:

I got busted by instructors for doing exactly that. Even those who insist on the SQQ feel want to have proper pause on 4 and 8. (Of course, if you do that on purpose, making an effect to accent something, that's different. But it is not the baseline.)

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Salsamakossa said:

the key is about feel, and not some set rule, that some guy in class tries to stress, as I am sure you agree...

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Proper pausing should not imply jerkiness.

This was not just stressed by no-name instructors at some crowded class from the local salsa-discounter.

Instructors that were consistently very picky and specific about correct timing (and feel) include Seaon Stylist and John Narvaez, among others.

Chr,

Pausing becomes jerky as the song becomes faster. That is inevitable.

I can understand why an instructor might insist on timing for beginners, which is why I said Lyndwode should teach stepping strictly on 123 567 initially. However, once the concept is understood and one has a feel for it, personal interpretation should override that. I hope this makes sense...

chr said:

Proper pausing should not imply jerkiness.

This was not just stressed by no-name instructors at some crowded class from the local salsa-discounter.

Instructors that were consistently very picky and specific about correct timing (and feel) include Seaon Stylist and John Narvaez, among others.

Click to expand...

chr said:

I am lost as well. Logic-wise, at least. However it has something to do with the feel which is hard to quantify. Still it is an observable phenomenon.

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I am both curious and lost. I think Macmoto in the other thread sums it the best. How you accent your basic is independent on which count you hold and step.

We should discuss it at the Beat tonight. We can at least support what we are saying by demo'ing.

Salsamakossa said:

Infact, some even use the 8, since they came from the 234 678 power 2 dancing culture eg Nelson Flores, Seaon Styling. What you could do is simply watch Eddie Torres, Frankie Martinez, J Matos, etc dance on youtube, and then draw your own conclusions ..

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Not sure what you meant by "use the 8". I would be very surprised if they weren't holding the "8". With at least two of the five you mentioned I do know that they definitely hold "8" and teach that way.

Salsamakossa said:

In wanting to do that, I take out the pause, even when dancing on1. I use the 8& or the 1 depending on the music feel or the turn pattern.

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I think the limitation in this discussion might be language and semantics. What do you mean by "pause"? Pause doesn't mean dead stop or freezing the movement (when I read it in this context).

Salsamakossa said:

Pausing becomes jerky as the song becomes faster. That is inevitable.

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Pausing doesn't imply jerkyness, irrespective of the song's tempo.

Salsamakossa said:

Chr,

Pausing becomes jerky as the song becomes faster. That is inevitable.

I can understand why an instructor might insist on timing for beginners, which is why I said Lyndwode should teach stepping strictly on 123 567 initially.

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I don't agree: you don't need to be jerky while holding the 4/8 properly, although it is true that it is much harder to remain smooth for fast songs, it is not impossible per se.

I had two very good instructors I took privates with (who don't even know each other pesonally), who were picky about holding the 4 properly and having the SQQ feel and being smooth all at the same time.