Salsa Friendliness Factor (MamboNYC thread)

lbedancing
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 11

Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:36 am Post subject: Salsa Friendliness

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The current state of salsa dysfunction is due to the cannibalism that has occurred in the last couple of years in the NY salsa scene. That is to say that the good and the trained on 2 dancers became a cliquish lot and started to hang out together shunning the great dance clubs like the Copacabana. They stayed away from the general populace. Add to this problem of exclusion or exclusiveness, the fact that the next or younger generation of dancers are more into reggaeton than salsa and you have the current state of affairs in the salsa scene in NY. Instead of first rate clubs, we now have socials where everyone dances with the dancers that they know. period. No generosity or patience is extended to beginners taking their baby steps, unless that novice happens to be attractive. The salsa scene here has always been competitive, with the best dancers getting the lion's share of attention from members of the opposite sex. Perhaps the older generation made greater allowances for the novices and beginners. This younger generation does not. With a mentality of everyone trying to outdo the other, one cannot expect courtesy and adherence to social etiquette on the dance floor. It is do or die out there right now. But perhaps this is mere speculation on my part. I have after all been away for two years in LA.

Is this really true, or was someone just in a bad mood? I imagine it's always been true that it's hard for beginners to get dances with the best dancers, and that attractive people have an advantage. And anywhere (and in any era), there are cliquish people who only want to dance with their friends.

I don't know. I read the other replies in the thread and it almost seemed like sf members were posting there with a different alias, the replies were so similar to whats been posted here.

Same here. Some of the descriptions sounded a bit too familiar so maybe it's a common thing in clubs. The way I see it, if you work all day, maybe have a family, have friends outside of Salsa and other hobbies; when you do finally get time to dance you'll want to spend it with the dance friends you've made over the years no?

Yeah it's frustrating to feel like you are 'not good enough' or more like some people think they are too good to dance with you but the isn't it true that the more experience you gain the fewer people you see as being that way?

Surely after a while you'll be technically good enough to dance with anybody so anytime you go to dance with someone it will be down to chemistry, personality or curiosity rather than only technical ability. In other words, when you can level peg with the same people that were 'too good for you' in your mind or theirs it will be up to you to choose whether you want to share your dance experience with everyone or become exclusive like the same people you used to complain about.

It's down to you at the end of the day.

No generosity or patience is extended to beginners taking their baby steps,..

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I hadn't really thought about it until now, but this is exactly the same thing in semi-competitive too highly competitive sports. In the badminton place I go to every week, the advanced players only play with other advanced players, intermediates like me play with other intermediates (or get creamed by bored advanced players) and beginners play mostly with other beginners. It is also true among serious vs. casual bicyclists, golfers etc. etc. Personally I don't like being with beginners/casual athletes in those sports either but I can't even imagine keeping up with top amateurs.

So maybe we should just settles this as: salsa dancing is a sport. [period]

bailar y tocar said:

So maybe we should just settles this as: salsa dancing is a sport. [period]

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I hope you are trolling!

On the note of the "scene gone bad" it just sounds like human nature to me. Maye the scene was partcularly friendly back in the days when it had to set itself apart from disco, but, well...

Flujo said:

Yeah it's frustrating to feel like you are 'not good enough' or more like some people think they are too good to dance with you but the isn't it true that the more experience you gain the fewer people you see as being that way?

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Yes, certainly. To put it another way: I can't stand all those snobby advanced dancers... but I can't wait to be one of them (but of course, I'll be different and still be humble and will be kind to the beginnerseace: ).

SnowDancer said:

I can't stand all those snobby advanced dancers... but I can't wait to be one of them (but of course, I'll be different and still be humble and will be kind to the beginnerseace: ).

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I have a second major hobby which has no connection with Salsa. With both my hobbies I have observed that often the best participants are actually quite friendly towards beginners. It is a proportion of the 'Wannabees' that are unfriendly.

In relation to dancing with beginners and intermediates I will dance with both as well as advanced dancers, and I'm certain that my dancing (well at least my lead) would not be anywhere near as good if I avoided dancing with beginner and intermediate dancers.

I agree that it's more the "wannabees" that will avoid dancing with beginners and as a result the "wannabees" will never truly be as good at leading/following as people who are more open-minded and continue to dance with partners of all skill levels.

John S2 said:

...I have observed that often the best participants are actually quite friendly towards beginners. It is a proportion of the 'Wannabees' that are unfriendly.

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Definitely have to agree there! The ones who want to show or feel like they've 'made it' are often a lot snootier than those who made it long ago and don't have to prove anything to anybody, and worry about making themselves look bad when they dance with a beginner.

Speaking as a lead, I always make it a point to dance with people who are clearly beginners or intermediates, but I did also want to suggest some points for the other side:

1. Dancing with beginners and intermediates can be very tiring. I've often spent the first half of the night dancing with younger level dancers, and by the time the second half came and the advanced dancers started arriving, I was low energy and dead tired and gave them crap dances.

I wouldn't mind if at the end of the dance the lady asked me for feedback because that's the best way to learn. However most people don't, and so repeat the same mistakes over and over again without having really gained anything from dancing with me, and it gets tiring on days when I've had a crap day at work.

2. When I'm out at salsa, I am more interested in talking and dancing with my friends or someone I haven't seen in a long time. So it's not a matter of deliberating excluding people I don't know, but simply me just wanting to socialise. However I would never say "No" if someone asked.

3. I think a reason for this common perception is simply what it means when anyone talks about "advanced dancer willing to dance with beginner dancer."

For many beginners and intermediates ladies, this sentiment means they expect to be asked by advanced dancers for a dance, and don't realise that they have to do the asking. The reason is that unless a dancer is actively looking for girls he's going to be busy dancing with his friends. And again if he is looking for women it's the attractive ones that get asked.

I also noticed a common trait even among my friends who just started salsa. Many of these ladies I know are pretty hot and alpha outside of salsa, and are used to being chased and not the ones doing the asking. So it's a sad carryover when they come into a club and sit around, they expect that the same will hold true. When it doesn't happen they come away thinking that advanced dancers are snooty, and I have to gently set them straight.

Unfortunately for them, they fail to realise that in a salsa club people are interested in one main goal, and it has nothing to do with the social goals of patrons of any other clubs or social situations they are used to. The beautiul thing about salsa is it's a great leveller of men and women. It doesn't matter if you're tall, short, good-looking, ugly, hot or not. As long as you've gone there united by a common love for the dance, and have put in the hard work to continue to improve, people don't care because that's not what they're there for.

Unless more people get it into their heads that as beginners they have to do the asking, and find out for themselves what the answer is most of the time, instead of assuming snootiness because they aren't asked, it may not be a fair claim that advanced dancers can't be bothered to dance with beginners.

dosvueltas2 said:

Unless more people get it into their heads that as beginners they have to do the asking, and find out for themselves what the answer is most of the time, instead of assuming snootiness because they aren't asked, it may not be a fair claim that advanced dancers can't be bothered to dance with beginners.

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I dunno, my experience as a beginner was pretty different.

I never did much asking at all, as the scene was huge and there was a fair amount of anonymity. Nobody really knew whether I was a beginner or just a new face, possibly an experienced out-of-towner. I got asked plenty.

The snobbery was really more about what happened *after* the asking. Some guys were really lovely to me and I'm still grateful to them. But there were some others who would ask and then their faces would fall when they realized I was a beginner. They'd stoneface or eye-roll (or in one instance, stop the dance and leave), and that was much more upsetting than just not asking in the first place.

noobster said:

They'd stoneface or eye-roll (or in one instance, stop the dance and leave), and that was much more upsetting than just not asking in the first place.

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That's just another problem I forgot to mention. That situation where you know that you would not be able to finish the dance at all, and have to decline, ask for another dance, and explain why. Actually it reminds me of 3 scenarios.

1. Sometimes beginners ask for a dance to a song that I know is way above their level. For instance I had a girl a few weeks ago ask for a dance to Aguanile. To avoid having to stop halfway, do I say no, let's wait for the next song because this one's too fast? Or should I say yes, and then end up running?

2. Other times, a beginner who is really, really beginner (autopilots, excessive hip sway and body tilting, no sense of timing, all over the place) asks to dance to a song that I know is going to be 7-9min. Say, Soneros del Bailadores or Cogle el Gusto. I'd have to decide if to say no, which offends, or halfway into the song when it's all falling apart?

3. One time I injured my wrist and could dance with only one arm. Dancing with my advanced buddies was no problem, but how should one reject a beginner who's seen you looking good with other ladies and not realising that a lot of that is because of great following skill on the part of the followers as well?

its really funny (yes this happens in every salsa city most likely). when i was first brought into the salsa scene i didn't realize to what extent this was true. i came not knowing anything. i asked anyone and everyone to dance not knowing skill level. my tactic was to use conversation and humour to distract them for the entire song while all i did was basic steps and inside/outside turns. by the end of the song, i had them laughing and talking. i gained many female friends this way. now i actually know how to dance and now everyone realizes this. had i known how it was, i'm not sure if i would be where i am now. ignorance is bliss.

its really unfortunate this exists...and not in salsa but in all sports. what happens when you're the best in your club/city?? you won't dance with anyone?? in sports, competing with lesser skilled provides an opportunity to work on the simple things and be creative to not bore yourself. women can dance and work on styling and the same thing for the men. you might not owe it to the dancer but you owe it to salsa and for the survival of the scene. someone did it for you so now its your turn to do it for someone else.

John S2 said:

I have a second major hobby which has no connection with Salsa. With both my hobbies I have observed that often the best participants are actually quite friendly towards beginners. It is a proportion of the 'Wannabees' that are unfriendly.

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Amen. There was a thing on the radio about a guy whose job it was to lay out the seating for a formal banquet complete with royals, statesmen, minor aristocrats, etc. He was really worrying over who should sit on the left or right of whom, and at which table, etc. His more experienced colleague put it nicely: "Don't worry too much; the people who matter don't really mind... and those who mind don't really matter."

dosvueltas2 said:

1. Dancing with beginners and intermediates can be very tiring. I've often spent the first half of the night dancing with younger level dancers, and by the time the second half came and the advanced dancers started arriving, I was low energy and dead tired and gave them crap dances.

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I've never found that I felt more tired after mostly dancing with beginners and intermediates then with advanced. I mostly get tired when I haven't had enough sleep the nights before. So would you mind explaining why those dances feel tiring to you?

dosvueltas2 said:

I wouldn't mind if at the end of the dance the lady asked me for feedback because that's the best way to learn. However most people don't, and so repeat the same mistakes over and over again without having really gained anything from dancing with me, and it gets tiring on days when I've had a crap day at work.

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Why should the lady ask for feedback when social dancing? Both, you and the lady, have gone out to dance and have fun and not to learn something new or be thaught about mistakes. If you're social dancing and any mistakes happens for various reasons, it's our task as a leader to cover up and make the lady still look good. It's in my opinion not our task to later give feedback to the lady about all the mistakes, but about the positive aspects of the dance, ie. good connection. Feedback about mistakes is something that belongs in my opinion into classes and workshops, where people expect it. Or do you ask after every dance the follower for feedback? And if yes, how do you feel (or would you feel) if you hear about mistakes when you're out for fun?

dosvueltas2 said:

For many beginners and intermediates ladies, this sentiment means they expect to be asked by advanced dancers for a dance, and don't realise that they have to do the asking. The reason is that unless a dancer is actively looking for girls he's going to be busy dancing with his friends. And again if he is looking for women it's the attractive ones that get asked.

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I don't think I agree with the two assumptions that you make here about leaders in general. I will agree with you that leads are often spending most of their time dancing with people they already know. But they will in my opinion also notice if new ladies are around and ask them for a dance as well. And also I doubt that only the attractive looking women are going to be asked. I think that leads are rather look at the general impression (ie. cloth, shoes, behaviour) that a lady gives to decide about asking her or not. So why would you ask the attractive but uninterested looking women for a dance when next to her is some less attractive women, who's already obviously moving to the music? (Unlikely gave some good advice in his blog)

dosvueltas2 said:

That's just another problem I forgot to mention. That situation where you know that you would not be able to finish the dance at all, and have to decline, ask for another dance, and explain why. Actually it reminds me of 3 scenarios.

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I don't see a problem with any of the scenarios that you mention. In case of the first and the second situations, I would politely suggest to take a break from dancing and rather pick the next song. A slightly different option would be to suggest to take a break but promise to pick her up later for a dance. That way you can pick the music that you think would be great for your dance with her. Only the third scenario is in my opinion different. Depending on which wrist you've injured, it might still be possible to dance with a beginner and use a restricted repertoire. Also you could explain the situation to the beginner and promise to dance with her again when you've recoverd from your injury. But in this case you better make sure to not forget her face and the promise you make.

The current state of salsa dysfunction is due to the cannibalism that has occurred in the last couple of years in the NY salsa scene. That is to say that the good and the trained on 2 dancers became a cliquish lot and started to hang out together shunning the great dance clubs like the Copacabana. They stayed away from the general populace. Add to this problem of exclusion or exclusiveness, the fact that the next or younger generation of dancers are more into reggaeton than salsa and you have the current state of affairs in the salsa scene in NY. Instead of first rate clubs, we now have socials where everyone dances with the dancers that they know. period. No generosity or patience is extended to beginners taking their baby steps, unless that novice happens to be attractive. The salsa scene here has always been competitive, with the best dancers getting the lion's share of attention from members of the opposite sex. Perhaps the older generation made greater allowances for the novices and beginners. This younger generation does not. With a mentality of everyone trying to outdo the other, one cannot expect courtesy and adherence to social etiquette on the dance floor. It is do or die out there right now. But perhaps this is mere speculation on my part. I have after all been away for two years in LA.

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Unfortunately this is not only true for NY or for ON2 dancers. This happens in a lot of places and with the various styles of dancing. In Las Vegas there were cliques and dancers dancing with the dancers they knew. (I lived there for 4 years). And if there was a beginner and she was HOT the guys were all over her, but the beginner that was not as attractive (male or female) got the cold shoulder.

Now I live in South Florida and......................I am seeing the same thing. First of all there are a lot more ON2 dancers here and I dance ON1 LA Style. The socials and the clubs here some very cliquish, not very many chances to an outsider or new face on the scene. VERY VERY competitive with each other at socials down here and I get the idea some people don't like the LA Style. Oh well that is life.

I am not saying everyone in the Las Vegas or South Florida Salsa scene is like this, but unfortunately I see it happen more often than not. My first social ( i will leave it unamed) I was very disappointed. Majority danced on 2, if the guys didn't know me and didn't see me dance they didn't ask me to dance (except the friends I had already made). Now I have no problem with asking guys to dance, however I felt it was so cliquey (sp?) that the guys would dance with one girl, and never come off the dance floor but would just grab the next girl they knew and saw on the dance floor. It was very discouraging. I took a few classes ON2 and I can follow, however I am much better on 1, feel mroe comfortable and like ON1 better.

I thought it might be different in other parts of the Salsa world but I guess not. There are many more "snobby" dancers than there used to be. I even noticed the shorter dress I wear the more I get asked to dance at the socials from guys I don't know. I also know that guys down here get rejected a lot based on looks of dance skill and I think that sucks. A guy come up to me after watching me dance at a club and said " you are probably going to say no, but would you like to dance" I told him yes and that he should have more confidence in himself. He is still dancing today and taking classes getting better every week.

Sorry that was so long of a post, it just gets me so mad to see snobby people that think they are gods gift treating others like garbage. Everyone is there for the same reason WE LOVE TO DANCE!!

John S2 said:

I have a second major hobby which has no connection with Salsa. With both my hobbies I have observed that often the best participants are actually quite friendly towards beginners. It is a proportion of the 'Wannabees' that are unfriendly.

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Yes. My aunt used to be a hairdresser for one of the movie/TV studios in Hollywood, and she said the same thing: The big stars were really nice, professional, and pleasant to work with. The few people who weren't so nice were the "Wannabees".

dosvueltas2 said:

The beautiul thing about salsa is it's a great leveller of men and women. It doesn't matter if you're tall, short, good-looking, ugly, hot or not. As long as you've gone there united by a common love for the dance, and have put in the hard work to continue to improve, people don't care because that's not what they're there for.

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That's a very nice sentiment, and so far, I've seen it to be true wherever I've danced.:cheers:

There are cliques in every sort of hobby and occupation, to be sure, that's just the way it is. But I also feel like there are plenty of people in the dance scene (at least in SF Bay Area) who are super-friendly and tolerant. If I dance with someone new, I tell them I'm a beginner, this sets the bar low, so they can't get too mad. And quite frankly, I'd rather dance with an 80 year old Cubano gent than a hot-young-full-of-himself-shine-stud...

salsadancer33 said:

The socials and the clubs here some very cliquish, not very many chances to an outsider or new face on the scene. VERY VERY competitive with each other at socials down here and I get the idea some people don't like the LA Style. Oh well that is life.

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This is not new about the Florida scene. I talked to some very good dancers who visited Miami several years ago (and other parts of Florida) and I hear consistently the same things.

I think it makes a lot of sense to learn the prevalent style, whatever is your current preference. I learned that I tend to like most what I do most often. If I dance a lot on2 (or on1,Cuban), then after a while I start to prefer it over anything else. It is like with langugages, you may dislike how certain language sounds when spoken, but when you move to a country or region where the language is spoken and learn it, then after a while you just speak it and don't think about it.